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Cover Sheet
STENOGRAPH TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Before the
MILITARY COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS
CHARGED WITH
OFFENSES AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE
ARTICLES OF WAR
________________
Volume XVI
Pages 2575 to 2750
2575
CONTENTS
|
Name
of Witness: |
Direct |
Cross |
Redirect |
Recross
|
By
Commission |
|
Dean
F. McWhorter |
2578 |
|
|
|
|
|
Earl
J. Connelley |
2588 |
|
|
|
|
|
Ernest Peter
Burger |
2592 |
|
2680,2699, 2708 |
|
2685 |
|
by the Attorney General |
|
2619 |
|
2698,2707 |
|
|
by Colonel Ristine |
|
2664 |
|
|
|
|
Marie
Kerling |
2716 |
2722 |
2725 |
2726 |
|
|
Hedwig
Engemann |
2727 |
2735 |
2740 |
|
2745 |
|
Col.
Stephen. H. Sherrill |
2745 |
2750 |
|
|
|
|
Thomas
J. Donegan |
2758 |
2761 |
|
|
|
EXHIBITS
|
Prosecution |
For
Identification |
In
Evidence |
In
Record |
|
P-266 Citizenship papers of Burger |
2626 |
2627 |
|
|
Defendants’ |
For
Identification |
In
Evidence |
In
Record |
|
G Memo, |
2582 |
2582 |
2583 |
|
H Letter, |
|
2701 |
2701 |
|
I Letter, |
|
2701 |
2702 |
|
J Discharge of Burger |
|
2701 |
2702 |
|
K Discharge of Burger |
|
2701 |
2705 |
|
L Confidential War Department letter |
|
2711 |
2751 |
|
M Map attached to exhibit L |
|
2711 |
|
--ooOoo--
2576
STENOGRAPHIC TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Before the
MILITARY COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS
CHARGED
WITH OFFENSES AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR
AND THE
ARTICLES OF WAR
_______________
The Military Commission appointed by
the President by order dated July 2, 1942, met in room 5235 Department of
Justice, at 10 o’clock a.m., to try for offenses against the Law of War and
Articles of War, the following persons: Ernest Peter Burger, George John Dasch,
Herbert Haupt, Heinrich Harm Heinck, Edward John Kerling, Hermann Neubauer,
Richard Quirin, and Werner Thiel.
PRESENT: Members of the Military Commission, as follows:
Major General Frank R. McCoy,
President,
Major General Walter G. Grant,
Major General Blanton Winship,
Major General Lorenzo D. Gasser,
Brigadier General Guy V. Henry,
Brigadier General John T. Lewis,
Brigadier General John T. Kennedy.
As Trial Judge
Advocates:
Honorable Francis Biddle,
Attorney General of the
Major General Myron Cramer,
The Judge Advocate General,
Colonel F. Granville Munson,
Colonel John M. Weir,
Major William T. Thurman,
Officers
of the Judge Advocate General’s Department.
Oscar Cox,
Assistant
Solicitor General of the
As Provost
Marshal:
Brigadier General Albert L. Cox.
2577
As Counsel for the Accused except
George John Dasch:
Colonel Cassius M. Dowell,
Colonel
Kenneth Royall.
As Counsel for the Accused George John
Dasch:
Colonel
Carl L. Ristine.
- - - - -
PROCEEDINGS
The President. The session is open.
Colonel Munson. The full personnel of the Commission, the
eight defendants, and the reporter are present.
The full personnel of the prosecution
is present except Colonel Treusch and Mr. Rowe.
The full personnel of the defense is
present except Major Stone, Captain Bruton, and Captain Hummell.
Colonel Royall. Is the Commission ready to proceed?
The President. Yes.
Colonel Royall. I beg your pardon, Colonel Ristine.
Colonel Ristine. If the Commission please, I would like to
call the Federal Agent of the F.B.I., Mr. McWhorter, of
Lieutenant Page. Mr. D.F. McWhorter. This witness has not been sworn as to
secrecy.
Colonel Munson. Mr. McWhorter, the Commission instructs me to
inform each witness who appears before it that it requires an oath of secrecy
as to these proceedings that nothing shall be revealed that is learned inside
the courtroom without the courtroom, and also instructs me to inform each
witness that a violation of the oath of secrecy may result in punishment by
contempt proceedings or other proceedings of a
2578
criminal
nature.
In taking the oath you understand that
to be the fact?
Mr. McWhorter. I do
Colonel Munson. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that you will not
divulge the proceedings taken at this trial to anyone outside the courtroom
until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by
property authority, so help you God?
Mr. McWhorter. I do.
Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall give in
the hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. McWhorter. I do.
DEAN F. MCWHORTER
was
called as a witness for the defense and testified as follows:
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q Will
you state, please, your full name, your business address, and your occupation?
A Dean
F. McWhorter, 607 Federal Court House,
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Mr.
McWhorter, did you have a conversation over the telephone on or about the
middle of June with a person who gave his name as Pastorius?
A Yes.
Q And
have you since learned that that person was the defendant Dasch on trial in this
case?
2579
A No,
I have not learned that.
Q Well,
would you tell the Commission, in your own way, as near as you can, what was
said by Pastorius or the man who gave that name, as well as yourself, and when
was that conversation, first? Do you
remember when that conversation was held?
A Yes. I was working on the evening of June 14 on
the regular office assignment.
Q Was
that a Sunday?
A Sunday
evening, yes, sir.
Q Yes.
Now just go ahead and relate to the Commission the conversation as you
recall it.
A Well,
it was a man that was speaking, and he said that he wanted a record made of the
call, I believe that was the first sentence that he gave me – and I asked him
what his name was, and he gave me some name I did not understand. I asked him to spell it, which I believed he
spelled the last name, and asked him what type of information he wished to
give, and he said well, he would not bother with giving it to me.
Then I asked him to come to the office
and he said no, he was going to Washington and give the information, and I told
him that we had an office in New York, it would not be necessary, and he said
no, he wanted to see somebody in Washington first, and he refused to give me
his address.
That’s about all the information I
could get from him.
A Didn’t
he give you the nature of the information.
Q No,
not at all. He did say that he had
arrived from
A He
said he had arrived from
Q Well,
he said he had arrived from
2580
two
days ago, is the way he put it.
Q And
did he tell you that he thought the information he had to divulge was of such a
character that it should be divulged at
A I
don’t remember that he stated it that way.
He simply did not want to come to the
Q Did
he ask you to advise the
A Yes.
Q And
did he tell you that he would be down on any particular day?
A He
said Thursday or Friday.
Q And
didn’t he tell you that he thought the information was so important that it
should be reported direct to
A He
said he was going to see Mr. Hoover, yes.
Q Well,
didn’t he say that he thought it was of such importance that it should be
reported direct to
A No,
I wouldn’t say that. He said he wanted
to give it to Mr. Hoover.
Q And
declined to give the information to your office in
A That’s
right.
Q But
he knew he was talking to the F.B.I. office?
A I
believe so. I don’t know whether he did
not.
Q Well,
didn’t you know from the conversation that he knew he was talking to an F.B.I.
agent?
A He
might have. I don’t know what he
thought.
2581
Q Well,
didn’t you advise him who you were? You
did not answer the telephone in the first instance, did you?
A Probably
not.
Q Don’t
you have an operator there in the
A Yes,
sir.
Q And
didn’t the operator call you and tell you that somebody wanted to speak with an
F.B.I. agent? Isn’t that the reason you
were called?
A My
phone rang and I answered it.
Q Well,
didn’t your operator up there advise you that somebody wanted to speak to an
F.B.I. agent?
A No,
the operator rings the phone and I answer the phone.
Q And
she does not give you any information at all?
A That’s
right.
Q Was
there any doubt in your mind whether the party knew he was talking to an F.B.I.
agent?
A I
can’t answer that. I don’t know what he
thought.
Q Did
you advise the
A I
did not.
Q Did
anybody in the office up there?
A I
can’t answer that.
Q Did
you suggest that anybody advise the
A I
prepared the information I received in a memorandum.
Q Well,
that memorandum you prepared was solely for the
A Certainly.
2582
Q And
it was not prepared with the idea that anybody would notify the
A Why,
certainly, if they cared to.
Q Well,
why didn’t you see to it that the Washington Office was notified of this
information?
A I
prepared the information in memorandum form for review by my supervisors and
their action.
Q But
didn’t you say in that memorandum that it was prepared solely for the office
information there in
A I
said it was prepared for record of the telephone call.
Colonel Ristine. Mark that.
(Photostatic
copy of memorandum of D.F.
McWhorter,
dated
For
identification Defendant’s Exhibit G.)
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q I
hand you a photostatic document marked “Defendant’s Exhibit G” and ask you
state if you can identify that (handing a document to the witness).
A This,
I believe is a photostatic copy of my memorandum.
Colonel Ristine: We offer that
memorandum in evidence and would like to have the witness read it into the
record, if the Commission please.
The President: Is there any objection?
The Attorney General. No Objection.
(Defendant’s
Exhibit G was received in
evidence.)
2583
DEFENDANT’S EXHIBIT G
The Witness (reading).
“
RE: F.D. POSTORIUS
MEMORANDUM FOR THE FILE:
“Please
be advised that at
“POSTORIUS”
advised that he had arrived in
“This
memo is being prepared only for the purpose of recording the call made by
POSTORIUS.
“Respectfully
submitted,
“D.F.
McWhorter,
“Special
Agent.”
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Now,
there is not any doubt but that he requested you to notify the Washington
Office that he would be down here Thursday or Friday, is there?
2584
A That’s
right.
Q And
you did not notify the Washington Office, did you?
A I
personally did not.
The Attorney General. I object.
This witness has said exactly what he did. He did his duty. He told his superior, I think all this
examination is irrelevant. The
memorandum is in. What has happened has
been told. This is simply going over and
rehashing it. He did his duty. He told his superior. It was not his business to notify anyone.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Well,
why did you put in the last paragraph, “This memo is being prepared only for
the purpose of recording the call made by Postorius”?
A I
would have to explain that further.
Q Well,
that is all right. Explain it.
A Well,
in receiving information in our office agents who receive it are requested to
make some suggestion as to further investigation, often, and, in my judgment,
that information that was furnished there – I would offer no further
investigation or no further suggestion for investigation.
Q Don’t
you think it would have been better if you had suggested in the last paragraph
that this matter be communicated to the Washington Office, as requested?
The Attorney General. I object.
What has it got to do with this case what this witness thinks would have
been better if he had done something else?
I object to the question. I think
it is perfectly improper.
2585
Colonel Ristine. I think the question is perfectly proper, if
the Commission please.
The Attorney General. The witness received a communication and
reported it to his superior. What
relevancy to facts has it to ask whether or not he did not think he ought to
have done something else? It is not a
question of what he thought he ought to have done. I do not think it is a proper question. I think all of it is irrelevant, after you
get a record of the call. That is the
only purpose of this examination. The
rest of it is just a waste of time.
Colonel Ristine. I am a little bit surprised that the Attorney
General would suggest that I am attempting to waste any time. I certainly think that it is pertinent to
know about it that when a person calls the F. B. I. office in New York and says
he has just arrived from Germany and that he has some information that he wants
to give to Hoover and asks that person to communicate the fact to the
Washington office that he is going to be here on Thursday or Friday to give
that information, and then when the memorandum is prepared, instead of
suggesting the information be forwarded by the New York office, he says in the
memorandum that it is made solely for recording the call in the New York
office.
The President. Well, I think that speaks for itself as an
office memorandum.
Colonel Ristine. It does speak for itself, if the Commission
please, but I am trying to develop what the reason was for not carrying out the
suggestion. It seems obvious to me that
the suggestion should have been carried out and the
2586
some
good reason why it was not done, I would like to have the witness state it.
The President. Ask him that question.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Will
you tell us why you did not in this memorandum suggest that that information be
communicated to the Washington Office?
The Attorney General. That was not the question that I think the
General had in mind. I think General
McCoy wanted to know if there was any good reason why it was not communicated. You have not developed whether it was communicated
or not. How do you know it was not?
The President. Ask some direct questions that will bring
out the facts that you are anxious to have in the record.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Did
you consider it advisable to communicate that information to the Washington
Office?
The Attorney General. I object.
The President. I think that question has been answered by
the witness both on the stand and in the memorandum.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Can
you tell the Commission why you did not take steps to see that this information
was communicated to the Washington Office?
A I
was simply reporting the information, setting it out in a memorandum for action
by my supervisors.
Q But
in your recommendation in the memorandum you restrict any action on the part of
your supervisor by suggesting that it is made solely for the information of the
2587
Office.
A That
sentence at the last would not restrict the supervisor from taking any action
that he thought advisable on it.
Q It
certainly suggests that you do not think it advisable that he take further
action, doesn’t it?
A No,
I would not say that.
Q Tell
me something. Did the
A I
can’t answer that.
Q Well,
do you know of any information they had respecting that at the time?
A I
had no information at that time.
Q You
had none. Colonel Ristine. I think that is all.
The Attorney General. Have you any questions?
Colonel Royall. No questions.
The Attorney General. No questions from me.
The President. Are there any questions from the
Commission? There seem to be none. The witness is excused. Colonel Ristine. We would like to call Special Agent
Connelley.
The President. Are you conscious that Mr. Connelley was in
the room at the time of your last witness’s testimony? Colonel Ristine. Well, if the Commission please, I believe Mr.
Connelley has been in the room during the entire trial.
The President. You still want him under those
conditions? Colonel Ristine. Yes, sir.
I would like to call him.
2588
Colonel Munson. Mr. Connelley, you have been sworn to secrecy
already, haven’t you?
Mr. Connelley. Yes.
Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall give on
the stand shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Connelley. Yes, sir.
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q Will
you state, please, your full name?
A Earl
J. Connelly, Assistant Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Mr.
Connelley, were you in charge of the proceedings that led up to this trial for
the Department of Justice?
A I
was for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice.
Q Do
you recall when the matter was first turned over to your supervision?
A On
Monday, June 15, although I was in the office at the time the case was first
delivered into our hands on June 13 by the U.
S. Coast Guard.
Q Do
you know whether any information had been furnished to the New York Office
respecting what had been discovered on the
A The
material on that was reported to us on Saturday
2589
morning,
on June 13, and the material recovered turned over to us by the U. S.
Coast Guard.
Q Yes,
I understand that, but had any of that information been forwarded to the New
York Office on June 14?
A It
was turned over to us on June 13, Saturday.
Q You
are speaking of the
A Material
recovered on the beach and the fact that the landing had been made.
Q You
are speaking, I believe, about the
A No. I was at
Q Oh,
I misunderstood you. I thought you were
in the Washing ton office.
A No,
I was in
2590
Q Was
the information given to the various agents in the New York Office?
A Only
such agents as were concerned with the investigation
Q Was
McWhorter concerned with the investigation?
A He
was not.
Q The
information was not given to him?
A It
was not.
Q Was
the memorandum which Mr. McWhorter prepared, of date
A It
was not; and the reason I can furnish you if you require it.
Q You
were in charge of the case from June 12, I believe?
A From
June 13 I was in possession of all the facts that concerned the case at that
time. And up to that time there was no
identification of any person of that name and no medium by which he could be
identified with the case at that time.
Q Was
the information contained in this memorandum communicated to the
A Not
that I know of, sir.
Colonel Ristine. I think that is all.
Colonel Royall. We have no questions.
The President. The witness is excused. The witness left the stand.
Colonel Royall. If the Commission please, I understand that
the defendant Dasch does not desire at this time to offer
2591
any
additional evidence. Therefore I desire
to examine, under oath, the defendant Burger.
The President. Defendant Burger, it is my duty to tell that
you have a legal now to do any one or several things, just as you choose. First, if you want to do so, you may be sworn
as a witness and testify under oath in this case like any other witness; or,
second, if you do not want to be sworn as a witness, you may without being
sworn, say anything about the case to the Commission that you desire; that is,
make what is called an unsworn statement; or you may, if you wish, file a
written statement with the Commission or, third, you may, if you wish, keep
silent and say nothing at all. If you do
take the witness stand and fail to deny or satisfactorily explain any of the
alleged wrongful acts about which you testify and about which any evidence has
been presented against you here, such failure on your part may be commented on
to the Commission by the prosecution when the argument to the Commission is
presented at the end of the trial, and the Commission can take it into
consideration in deciding whether you are guilty or innocent of the
offenses. Do you understand fully all
that I have said to you so far?
The Defendant Burger. I do, sir.
The President. Knowing these various rights, which will you
do?
The Defendant Burger. I would like to be sworn as a witness, sir.
The President. In you own behalf?
The Defendant Burger. Yes, sir.
2592
The President. Have you counseled with Colonel Royall and
defense counsel in regard to your action?
The Defendant Burger. Yes, sir.
The President. Take the stand, please.
Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall now
give in the case on hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
The Defendant Burger. I do.
Sir.
was
called as a witness for the defense and testified as follows:
Colonel Munson. State your full name.
The Witness. Ernest Peter Burger.
Colonel Munson. You are one of the accused in this case?
The Witness. Yes, sir.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Where
were you born?
A In
Q When?
A
Q I
believe that there has been introduced in evidence a statement which you gave
the F.B.I., about 64 pages long; is that correct?
A Yes,
sir.
Q You
gave that statement freely?
A I
did.
Q Voluntarily?
A Yes,
sir.
2593
Q And,
so far as you now recall it, is it correct in every particular?
A It
is absolutely correct, sir.
Q Have
you since the giving of that statement desired to change it in any manner?
A I
do not change it.
Q I
believe you gave a short supplemental statement which is which has not been put
in evidence. That does not contradict
the first statement in any respect, does it?
A It
was not a supplementary statement, sir; it was a condensation of the first
statement.
Q Does
it contradict the first statement in any way?
A It
does not; I do not think so.
Q You
do not think it does, anyway?
A No,
sir.
Q Since
you have given such a full statement and it has been put in evidence, please
make your answers to my questions as short as you can, to be accurate.
A Yes,
sir.
Q It
is unnecessary to take up the time of the Commission to go into great
detail. At the beginning of this case
you were willing to go on the stand personally, were you not?
A Yes,
sir.
Q And
your lawyers advised you, on account of the other defendants, not to take the
stand?
A That
I should take the stand later.
Q You
lived in
A Up
to 1927.
Q You
came to
2594
A February,
1927.
Q And
stayed here until 1933?
A Yes.
Q What,
in general, was your occupation spurning that period here?
A I
worked generally as a tool and die maker.
Q Did
you obtain your final citizenship papers while in
A I
did, sir.
Q While
you were in
A I
was a member of the National Guard in
Q Did
you receive an honorable discharge from those bodies?
A I
did.
Q Where
are those honorable discharges?
A In
the possession of the F.B.I.
Q Did
you have them with you when you were apprehended?
A I
had them with me.
Q Did
you receive any button or insignia of any kind?
A The
sharpshooter’s insignia.
Q Is
that also with the F.B.I.?
A I
suppose so, sir.
Q It
was with you when you were apprehended?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you have a special letter from any commanding officer?
A I
did, sir.
2595
Q Was
that also with you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q I
believe you went to
A Before
this war; yes, sir.
Q You
went there, I believe you said in your statement because you were having
difficulty during the depression in finding work, and your family sent you a
ticket to come; is that right?
A Yes.
Q While
you were in
A I
did not, sir.
Q You
did join the armed forces in
A I
joined the armed forces when I was drawn in 1941.
Q Did
you participate in any fighting in
A Since
1933?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Did
you participate at any time?
A Before
I came over to the
Q That
was prior to 1927?
A Yes.
Q Did
you receive any decorations before you came to
A Yes,
sir. I had two decorations for bravery
in action.
2596
Q What
became of those?
A After
I had difficulties with the Gestapo they took them in and I was not allowed to
wear them any more.
Q Before
you came to
A When?
Q When
did you join the Nazi Party?
A February,
1923, up to 1925.
Q You
were what was called one of the old Storm Troopers; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Upon
your return to
A I
did, sir, in 1933, when I came back.
Q What
connection, if any, did you have with Roehm?
State briefly what your connection was with Roehm and what happened to
Roehm.
A I
came in the fall of 1933 to the High Command of the Storm Troopers, and at that
time the chief of staff was Ernest Roehm.
At that time I had a position as Aide de Camp and remained on the staff
up to June of 1934, when he was killed.
Q At
that time were large numbers of old Storm Troopers killed?
A Yes,
sir.
Q How
did you escape?
A I
happened to be assigned to the Chief of the Medical Corps at that time, and he
was the only one who had the confidence of Adolf Hitler.
2597
Q Who
was he?
Q How
many of the leaders and their friends were killed at the time of the Roehm
purge?
A Around
three thousand.
Q From
that time on what was the feeling between the old Storm Troopers and the newer
members of the Nazi Party?
A From
that time on the entire course of the party changed.
Q The
entire course?
A Yes,
sir. The original program was not
followed any more. Our former enemies
got into the party, secured jobs, and they formed a very strong opposition
against anyone who had belonged to the Storm Troopers before 1933.
Q How
were the old Storm Troopers treated by the newer members of the party?
A You
see, we were more or less soldiers, either trained soldiers or trained by
street battles and all that, and our opposition were politicians, people with
more or less ideas for business, making personal profits. We never thought of that. So, of course, when we realized that, we
started to fight them and naturally were not strong enough, and they put us in
jail and removed most of us.
Q When
was Roehm killed?
A On
Q Shortly
after that time did you form any intention to get out of
A After
Roehm was killed, most of the old Storm Troopers tried to get out of
2598
Q Was
it easy for them to get out of
A It
was easy to get out of
Q Did
you make an effort, following the purge, to get out of
A I
did, sir.
Q I
believe you have covered that pretty fully in your statement, as to your
efforts, have you not?
A Yes.
Q You
referred to Miss Eva Schultzend Hana Hausofar?
A Yes.
Q After
you failed in your efforts to get out of
A Yes,
in 1939 and 1940, after the war started.
Q What
was the relation between the Gestapo and the Nazi Party? They are members of the party, but what is
their exact relation?
A They
are not exactly members of the party.
Q What
are they?
A May
I explain that?
Q Yes,
I think we would all like to know that.
A It
is not so very easy. Before Roehm was
killed, Himmler was below Roehm; Himmler was just the chief of the Schutz
Staffel, or the S.S., which was a part of the Storm Troopers. After Roehm was killed, Himmler with his
Schutz Staffel, were separated from the Storm Troopers, and built up
2599
[as
a police guard, a police force, as a secret police; and that was the time when
the Gestapo originated. Finally Himmler
was made Chief of Police, of the secret police, also of the uniformed police,
and his right hand man at that time was Heydrich, and he organized and built up
the Gestapo as it is now.
Q Pete,
were any charges made against you by the Gestapo?
A About
the outbreak of the war, when I was in Poland, I got in difficulties with the
Gestapo, and at first they didn’t make any charges, and finally they gave my
case over to the Justice department and put up a charge of falsification of
papers.
Q Was
there any basis for that charge?
A There
was no basis whatever. I was arrested on
the same day. When I reported to see the
governor of the state in the morning, in the evening I was arrested.
2600
Q Were
the charges investigated on several occasions?
A They
were, four times. I had four times a
trial in court, and four times it was dropped.
The charge put up against me by the Gestapo -- that is a certificate
where the reason is pointed out why I am in concentration camp. It said because I injured gravely the
reputation of the Schutz Staffel and every way undermined the confidence of
people in state and party.
Q Notwithstanding
those charges being investigated and found groundless, did they continue to
arrest you?
A Well,
they kept me 17 months.
Q Where
were you exactly during those 17 months?
A First
I was in the jail in
Q Do
you know about how long you stayed in that cellar?
A About
three months; then they took me over to the Justice Department -- delivered the
whole case to the Justice Department -- and they put me five weeks in prison
and set me free -- gave up the charge, as a I told you -- the first trial --
and dropped it. But the Gestapo did not
give me free and put me in the -- in concentration one year.
Q Where
was that?
A I
was one year in a building in
Q That
altogether was 17 months?
A 17
months.
Q I
believe you have covered that pretty well in your statement, but tell us briefly
how you were treated during that time, Pete, by the Gestapo.
2601
A Well,
I don’t think I can say anything about that, sir.
Q You
have covered that in your statement?
A Partly
I have.
Q Were
you treated badly?
A The
witness did not answer.
The President. I did not hear any answer.
Colonel Royall. He did not answer; he just said he did not
want to say. I think it will be apparent
why he does not in a few minutes.
The Witness. May I add something to that? It was not the treatment of myself what
really hurt, but what they did to my wife.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Well,
I am coming to that.
A That
was it.
Q You
could stand your treatment, could you?
A I
could stand it.
Q What
did they do about your wife?
A They
at first know that my wife expected a baby.
They had her come down to headquarters several times and they told her
that I stole some money in a town at
Q Had
you ever been in
A I
never was in
Q Go
ahead with your story.
A She
refused to get at divorce. Naturally she
had a
2602
breakdown,
and they took her to the hospital. They
had to operate on her, and she had this -- I think you call it a
miscarriage. They kept on telling her
that she had to get a divorce as a German woman because I was not able to, and
told her she should bring my uniform down.
I was in civilian clothes when I was arrested. They told her she should bring my uniform
down to Gestapo headquarters, so I should wear it, and they could take off my
-- rip off my epaulets. She refused that
also. After a while they made me write a
farewell letter to my wife, telling her that I never come back, and so on;
stopped my bank account. That is all.
Q Did
they take away your epaulets and decorations?
A They
did.
Q What
effect did that treatment have on your determination to get out of
A Well,
that is very clear, I think.
Q I
am sure it is clear, but what effect did it have on your intention to get out
of
A Well,
you see, when I had the reason -- when my reason to get out of Germany before I
had difficulties with the Gestapo was political, just a change of the party
from the original program, an opinion which I had not alone, but had thousands
of my storm troopers -- from that time on the reason to get out of Germany was
personal, not only for me but also for my wife.
Q Did
you from that time on seek a way to get out of
2603
A Yes,
I did.
Q What
did you do in an n effort to get out of
A That
was
Q Did
you have any success with that?
A I
did.
Q Where
did you get?
A Well,
first they had in mind for me to go to the northern part of
Q Of
course, you told the Intelligence and Lieutenant Kappe you wanted to do
something for
A Well. I volunteered to do anything in order to, as
I told them rehabilitate myself.
Q Why
did you tell them that?
A Well,
you see, my idea was not to get out of
Q Did
you know of any other way to get out of
A I
didn’t know of any other way with the exception of
2604
getting
into
Q Underground?
A Underground
way, but I couldn’t do that, because I had my folks there. I had five people in
Q Why
would the method you did adopt have been better for your people than going to
A If
I would have gone to
Q But
it you went out legally, it would not affect your folks?
A No.
Q You
went to this sabotage school as a result of your conversation with Lieutenant
Kappe?
A I
did.
Q Let
me ask you one or two things about what they taught these boys at the sabotage
school. Tell us just as accurately as
you can without too much detail. Were
you given any instructions about hurting anybody or harming anybody?
A No;
on the contrary; I stated that in my statement already.
Q I
believe you have covered all that in you statement, have you not?
A I
have.
2605
Q I
shall not go over that again; there is no necessity for that.
Did you on one or two occasions
express a little hostility toward the Gestapo?
A That
is possible.
Q You
tried not to?
A Well,
it was at one occasion officially -- or more or less officially-explained by
Lieutenant Kappe to a small group of boys that I was in camp; and the second
instance, it was explained by George in the room of Herbert Haupt, and I think
Henry was along and some of the boys there, that I was in concentration
camp. Naturally after that several of
the boys came up to me when we were walking, or something, and asked questions,
and it is possible -- I don’t remember it -- but it is very possible that I
made one or another remark.
Q Did
you find after the boys learned that you were in concentration camp that they
asked you questions and seemed to be distrustful of you?
A Well,
of course, I felt that it made a little difference, because at one or other
occasion I was asked, “How come you take an order or you go on a mission like
this, as dangerous as this is, if the Gestapo put you through all this?”
I remember that I told one that I not
consider the Gestapo and
Q Pete,
before you left
A I
did. I communicated with my wife. That is, I wrote a letter to my wife one
hour, or about one hour, before I left the submarine out there.
2606
Q Before
you left
A Before
I left the submarine, before I landed in Amagansett. Question by the President:
Q Pardon
me; what was you last answer? Before you
left where?
A Before
I left the submarine on landing here, in order to land on the beach.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q I
was coming to that. But did you
communicate with her before you left
A Yes,
I did.
Q How
did you communicate with her? Did you go
to see her?
A Before
we left
Q Did
you give her any password or means of identification?
A I
did.
Q When
did you do that?
A I
did that personally when I was home on vacation.
Q Most
of the defendants -- I think all of them -- have testified that they were
disturbed about the gold certificates.
Were you disturbed about them?
A Well
I wouldn’t say I was disturbed; I was more or less disappointed -- disappointed
not for the reason that there would be a possible chance of being caught, but
for the reason
2607
that
I or any one of us could be punished for anything he didn’t have any fault, you
know -- what he didn’t do anything; it wasn’t his fault that he had these gold
certificates; and still, I believe if they would have apprehended him with
those gold certificates and there would have been trouble, they couldn’t do
anything about it. I couldn’t do
anything about it either. It wasn’t, as
I stated -- I want to point that out -- it wasn’t being afraid of being caught,
but it was the idea of being punished for something somebody else was
responsible for, see? That is only one
of the chain of points which proved that Lieutenant Kappe made his own business.
Q I
believe one of the agents has testified that you told about this, but I believe
I will ask you about it anyhow. Before
you left
A May
I explain this?
Q Yes,
you may explain that.
A When
I was in apprehension of the Gestapo, I met three agents of the German
Intelligence which were also arrested, one of Lisbon, one of France, and there
was a no charge against them; they only were kept; and they told me quite a bit
of their experiences. They knew too
much.
Q That
was the reason they were kept?
A That
was the reason that one was kept in chains.
Anyway, when I came to Kappe towards the end of our course, I said to
him -- and I think several of the boys were present at that time -- “Listen” --
Walter Kappe was his name -- “When we come back, no matter if it is successful
or not, we learned quite a
2608
bit
about explosives and using them. Don’t
you think the reaction of the Gestapo would be kind of problematical?”
Then he smiled and explained very
freely, still smiling, “Why, don’t think that you could go home. We put you through concentration camp and
make a good citizen out of you.”
Q So,
he told you that even if you came back, you would have to go back to a
concentration camp?
A Yes,
in order to become a good citizen again.
May I point out at this time that being in concentration camp is not in
Q That
is what they say?
A Yes.
2609
Q You
do not like that education, do you, Pete?
A I
don’t think anyone likes it.
Q Now,
I believe you described what was done when you came over here in some detail,
and I won’t go into that, but did you use your own name?
A I
did.
Q Throughout?
A I
did.
Q Did
you ever use any alias of any kind? Any
other name?
A No. The only think I used when I registered at
the hotel, naturally I couldn’t put down an address, because I didn’t have any,
so I put down a street I used to live in
Q Where
you formerly lived in
A Yes.
Q Pete,
did you have on your person when you came back here any German writing of any
kind?
A Yes.
Q Did
you try to dispose of it?
A No.
Q What
did you have?
A Well,
I had several things. I had several
things. For instance, I had --
Q Do
you recall some of them?
A I
had all the formulas of the explosives, and I am sorry I lost that piece of
paper out in Amagansett; and I had some receipts -- German receipts of the money
I sent -- the last money I sent to my wife just before I left
2610
graph
of my wife with German prints on, I think.
That’s all.
Q Were
they found by the F.B.I.?
A Certainly.
Q I
believe you said you did not attempt to dispose of or conceal any of them?
A That’s
right.
Q Did
you register at the Governor Clinton Hotel in your own name?
A I
did, sir.
Q Did
you make any effort to dispose of the money that you brought?
A No.
Q Did
you keep it right there in your room?
A Yes.
Q When
did you first know definitely that anybody else in your group might be planning
to expose the plan or get out of the plan?
A On
Saturday, 13th -- June 13th.
Q Now,
when was that with relation to your landing?
A That
was in the evening.
Q I
believe you have testified that you did have some conversation, which is
covered in your statement, over in
A Yes.
Q But
that is the first time you knew definitely?
A That
is the first time.
Q Who
was the person you learned then for the fist time might not be willing to go
along with this plan?
A George
Dasch.
2611
Q George Dasch. Where
were you when he gave that information?
A We
were in the Coral Room of the Hotel Governor Clinton, New York.
Q Had
you done anything up to that time about getting away from the others or
reporting anything except what you describe as having done on the beach, which
I won’t go into now? Had you done
anything? Did you mention it to any of
the others?
A No.
Q Why?
A Well,
because when I was in
Q You
refer to dragging your bag across the beach?
A Yes.
Q I
believe you dropped some of the articles before you ever saw the coast Guard?
A Yes.
Q That
is in your statement. Go ahead.
A That
was the second plan I could really consider before I landed in the
Q Did
you have any fear of the Gestapo?
2612
A Yes,
and I still have.
Q Did
you have any fear that what these other boys know about your wanting to get out
and expose it would get to the Gestapo?
Just tell what you thought. I do
not want to lead you.
A I
felt that they did not trust me exactly.
Q You
said that you had a fear of the Gestapo.
I wish you would tell the Commission and all of us what information you
had as to the Gestapo in this country -- what you heard.
A As
I stated already, when I was arrested by the Gestapo I overheard a conversation
between two high leaders of the Gestapo that they had their men in the English
Intelligence Service and also in the Secret Service of the
The other point is that Lieutenant
Kappe told me that they had their men over here, that they knew exactly what
was going on in the offices of the Secret Service, in the F.B.I.
I asked him, “What is the organization
we have to watch out for?” He says, “The
F.B.I.”
He knew that there is a great part --
I think he told me 90 per cent college men -- and I also knew or heard of the
Seibold case, which confirmed my conviction.
Q That
was an agent who came to
A Was
sent over by Heydrich, chief of the Gestapo.
Q And
what happened to him? Did the Gestapo
get him?
A He
was a Gestapo. He was a member of the
Gestapo.
Q The
F.B.I. got him?
A The
F.B.I. got him, and he wasn’t
alone. There
2613
were
about thirty of them.
Q You
had heard of that, had you?
A Sure,
I heard of it, and George Dasch knows it, too, because he studied the records
over there.
Q Now,
you say you were afraid and still are afraid of the Gestapo. Was that the reason you did not do anything
immediately?
A That
was the reason why we did not do it, or why I did not do anything in New York
-- in fact, I told George Dasch on account of that that it would be impossible
and unwise -- foolish -- to get in touch with anyone in New York.
Q But
did he get in touch with someone in
A He
telephoned.
Q Now,
I believe you waited in
A That’s
right.
Q Why
didn’t you report it yourself, instead of waiting for George to go to
A You,
see, there was no reason to hurry, in the first place, in my opinion. I had pointed out a way to find the
explosives, so, first of all, there was no danger -- that is my personal
opinion -- there was no danger to hurry up.
And, second, in the evening of the very day when we landed George Dasch
explained things to me -- that is, we got talking and I knew what it was all
about. Next morning he came clear and
opened out with his idea, said there was no reason for me to do anything. He said he would take care of everything and,
in fact, he did.
Q And
from that time on you relied on George to take
2614
care
of you?
A I
did.
Q Do
you know why he waited from Saturday, when he first told it to you, or Sunday,
when he first called up, until Thursday or Friday to go down to
A He
wasn’t in -- I don’t think he was in a position to go anywhere, to make
anywhere a serious statement.
Q Do
you know why he waited?
A Because
his nerves went -- they were not the way -- he had more or less a nervous
breakdown.
Q You
waited for him to come to
A I
left it up to him. He was more or less
the man in charge.
Q Now,
Pete, I believe George wrote you from
A Yes,
he did.
Q I
believe that letter is in evidence.
A He
wrote one letter before he left.
Q Did
you get a letter written from
A In
Q In
A Yes.
Q Did
you know he had gone to
A I
did.
Q He
told you that?
A Yes.
2615
Q Did
you still remain there at the hotel?
A I
did.
Q Registered
under your own name?
A I
did.
Q Did
you make any effort of any kind to leave?
A No.
Q I
believe your statement shows you were there in the room when they came?
A Yes.
Q When
the F.B.I. came, I believe it has been testified, you gave them a
statement. Did you tell them everything
they asked you?
A Yes.
Q I
believe you gave that statement principally to Mr. Lanman, is that right, who
has been on the stand?
A I
did, yes.
Q Did
you tell him fully, freely, and frankly all the facts?
A Yes.
Q Just
as you have told them here in part?
A Yes.
Q Did
you give them all the information that they asked --
A Yes.
Q continuing
-- about the submarines and everything in the method of operation?
A As
far as I knew, yes.
Q You
gave that the first time they asked you in your first statement?
A Yes.
2616
Q Did
you make any false statements to them at all at the outset?
A No.
Q I
believe Mr. Lanman has said, and it is a fact, is it not, that when you made
that statement you did not know whether they had found the articles on the
beach or not?
A Pardon
me. May I go back to the other question?
Q Yes.
A You
asked me if I held anything back or made a false statement. To a certain extent I did.
Q What
was that?
A Mr.
Lanman asked me if I had any relatives in the United States, and I said no, but
there is a distant relative, some old lady of 75 years, I think she is, old,
and they call it over here second cousin.
Q Well,
is that the only thing in your statement you made to him that was not true?
A That
is the only thing.
Q Pete,
did you know at the time you made that statement whether or not they had found
the various articles on the beach?
A I
did not.
Q Did
you tell them about dragging the sand?
A Yes,
I did.
Q Did
you tell them about leaving the cigarettes there?
A I
did.
Q Did
you tell them about the Coast Guardsman?
A Yes;
everything, I told them.
Q You
told them about these articles that they later
2617
found
there?
A Yes.
Q Let
me ask you one or two questions about these other boys. Tell me what your opinion as of Heinck’s
ability to carry out any plan without some direction from somebody. What do you think of Heinck?
A I
do not know how far my opinion is of any importance, but I do not believe that
Heinck -- in fact, he refused, for instance, to get the boxes.
The Attorney General. I do not think it is proper to have one
prisoner comment on the other.
Colonel Royall. I won’t do it if there is any objection.
The Attorney General. I do not think it is right.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q What
have you observed of Heinck? Do not
answer this question until the Attorney General objects, because I think it is
competent to ask you that, but he may want to object. What do you think of Heinck? What did you observe of Heinck -- I will put
it that way -- as to initiative and his ability to go ahead without direction
from anybody?
A None. He did not have any initiative.
Q Is
there any other single member of this group you have observed that about?
A Well,
the second group I can’t talk -- I do not know anything.
Q You
did not have an opportunity to observe Thiel, did you?
A No,
not after we landed, you see.
Q Pete,
your statement is full and complete. I
do not
2618
want
to repeat anything, but is there anything that I have not asked you about that,
even though it is contained in your statement, you want to say anything about
before I turn you over for cross-examination?
A No,
sir, I can’t think of anything right now.
Q And
you still do not want to correct your statement as you now recollect it?
A I
can’t correct it, because it is true.
Q There
is one thing I want to ask you about. I
believe somewhere in your statement some information was given about some other
submarine probably landing in this country.
That is not clear to me. You told
the F.B.I. about some submarine landing
somewhere on the coast?
A Yes. There was a conversation I overheard at
Q Now,
why didn’t you report that to the F.B.I. when you got here, so that they could
apprehend them? Did you have any reason
for that?
A I
did not think of that. I remembered that
when I talked to MR. Lanman. I did not
think of that before.
Q You
did not think of that before. You were
thinking principally, or you were thinking in part, or getting to
A That’s
right. Colonel Royall. That is all we care to ask him on direct
examination, unless he has something to add.
2619
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Pete,
you joined the Nazi Party in 1923 and remained until 1935?
A Yes. Pardon me, sir, I wanted to correct
that. It is not true. I joined the Nazi Party in February 1923 --
Q In
A Yes,
and remained in the Nazi Party until November, 1923, when I took part in the
original Boer Hill Putsch, but after this, you see the party did not exist any
more. The police prohibited the
party. So at the same time, naturally,
my membership expired, because the police closed it up, you might say, and the
party was recreated in 1925. So in fact
I only did belong to the party from 1923, February, until November, when it was
prohibited.
Q When
did you join again?
A 1933,
when I came back.
Q When
you came back to
A Yes.
2620
Q Have
you been a member ever since then? You
are a member now?
A Yes. I was officially dismissed from the party
because of my difficulty with the Gestapo, and at the same time I had to sign a
written protest.
Q The
written protest, as I remember, was so that you cold still be under the
regulation of the Party?
A Yes.
Q Did
the Party have a uniform?
A Yes.
Q Did
you wear it?
A Yes.
Q When
you referred to the epaulets and the insignia which the Gestapo took off you,
were they the epaulets and the insignia of the Nazi Party?
A No,
sir.
Q Were
they the epaulets of your uniform as a soldier?
A No;
it is different.
Q What
were they?
A You
see, due to the fact that I was a member of this original organization I had
the highest decoration of the Party, and when I had trouble with the Gestapo
they took this decoration away. At the
same time they prohibited the wearing of two other decorations I had, which had
nothing to do with the party, but they were decorations for bravery in
battle. They had nothing to do with the
party at all; but still it was prohibited.
Q What
were the epaulets?
A My
party uniform.
2621
Q The
Nazi Uniform?
A Yes,
sir.
Q I
was not sure what you meant. The other
seven defendants were all at the camp or school for sabotage, were they not?
A Yes.
Q Had
you know Walter Kappe before you saw him over there?
A Before
I saw him at school, you mean?
Q Yes.
A Yes;
I saw him when I went up to headquarters.
Q Had
you know him in this country?
A No,
sir.
Q Had
you heard of him when you were in
A No,
sir.
Q Never
heard of him before you went over?
A No.
Q Did
Kappe say anything about any of his friends in
A Then
do you mean?
Q Any
time did he ever talk about any friends he had in the
A No,
sir.
Q He
did not give you any names of friends he had here?
A No. On the contrary, he told me -- in fact, he
told all of us, and I heard it said -- that we should never mention his name
over here.
Q Did
he say whether he was coming over here or not?
2622
A Yes.
Q Did
he tell you that?
A Yes.
Q Do
you know why he gave you that information?
A No.
Q Were
you to meet him when he came over?
A No. I was to put up an ad., advertising in the
paper. I can’t express myself in
English.
Q You
were to put an advertisement in the newspaper; is that right?
A Yes,
sir.
Q In
the
A Yes.
Q When
were you to put it in?
A May
I explain that? Reinhold Barth wanted to
come over, and Kappe said in a more or less general way that he wanted to come
over late, but they did not state when.
Q Did
Reinhold Barth state when he, Barth, wanted to come?
A Yes. He told me personally that he wanted to come
over in September.
Q September,
1942, of course?
A Yes.
Q Who
was Barth going to bring with him? Was
he going to bring Swenson?
A No.
Q Who
was he going to bring?
A He
didn’t tell me that he wanted to bring anyone, but he mentioned that he wanted
to bring another group with him.
2623
Q Was
he coming from
A He
didn’t say that.
Q What
was the arrangement as to the advertisement?
A Reinhold
Barth told me that I should, on the first and the 15th.
Q The
first and the 15th of what?
A Of
the month of August, as soon as I had established a front, my identity in
Q What
was that ad supposed to show?
A That
would mean that we established this front, that we built up an identity.
Q Was
that to be a communication to Barth and Kappe that you had established your
front in
A Yes.
Q How
was it to be worded?
A There
was nothing said about that.
Q Was
any arrangement made by you to put any ad?
In if you had not been able to establish a front.
A No.
Q Or
if you had gotten into trouble or were under suspicion?
A No.
Q What
was to be put in on the 15th?
A The
same thing.
Q Either
the first or the 15th?
A Yes.
Q Was
it just one advertisement that you were to put in, or were there going to be
several advertisements?
A It
was just an advertisement.
2624
Q One
advertisement?
A No,
not one advertisement. I suppose I
should run it regularly.
Q For
how long?
A It
was not told me.
Q Was
it to be a week or two weeks? Did you
get any impression as to the length of time?
A I
suppose I should have put it in there repeatedly.
Q For
how long; do you remember?
A I
don’t know for how long.
Q How
were they going to get the Tribune in
A They
had quite a number of American papers.
Q Do
you know how they were going to get the Tribune in August?
A I
don’t know.
Q Was
anything said about radio?
A No,
sir.
Q Nothing
was said about that?
A No,
sir.
Q Who
was to put the advertisement in? Were
you put it in, you personally?
A Yes.
Q How
about for the other group?
A I
don’t know anything about the other group.
Q That
advertisement meant that your group had established a front?
A No,
that I had established a front.
Q What
kind of a front did he mean?
A That
I had established a business.
2625
Q Your
orders were to establish some sort of business?
A As
a commercial artist, and the place where I lived.
Q In
A Yes.
Q So
your orders were to establish in
A Yes.
Q Was
that from Kappe or Barth?
A That
was Barth.
Q You
each had a personality story, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Some
of these boys said, I think, that they were given other names, false names?
A Yes.
Q And
your instructions were that you were to use your own names?
A That
was not my instruction.
Q It
was understood that you were to use your own name?
A That
was my decision.
Q Was
it approved by Kappe?
A It
was finally approved, sir.
Q What
reasons did you have for using your own name?
A I
told him that I had papers.
Q A
passport?
A The
passport I didn’t bring along at all.
Q You
had a passport at the camp?
A No;
I had a passport when I left the
Q I
understand that; but did you have it at the camp?
A No,
sir.
The Attorney General. I will ask the reporter to mark
2626
this
document for identification.
(A
citizenship document of Burger
was marked P-266 for identification.)
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Is
this P-266 your passport?
A No,
sir.
Q Oh. I beg your pardon. That is your citizenship paper. You had that with you?
A Yes;
I had it with me.
Q And
the plan was finally approved that you were going to use your own name?
A Yes,
sir.
Q On
account of this citizenship paper?
A Not
on account of it, but because I refused to take any other name.
Q I
understand that; but did you not say that since you had a citizenship paper
here, it would be more convenient to use your name?
A I
told him that.
Q What
did they do?
A They
good out the stamp where it said “Passport issued.”
Q The
stamp said “Passport issued”?
A Yes.
Q Why
did they take that out?
A Because
I was supposed to tell anyone who asked me that I did not leave the Untied
States.
Q And
this red ink indicating is where that stamp was erased?
A I
imagine so; yes.
2627
(Citizenship
paper of Burger,
previously
marked P-266 for
identification,
was received
in evidence)
Q So
that the final plan that you and Kappe agreed to was that you were to use this
citizenship paper which had been altered so as to show that you never went out
of the
A Yes.
Q And
you think you were to use your own name?
A Yes,
sir.
Q We
have heard a great deal about this secret writing. Did Kappe talk to you about that at all?
A He
talked to all of us about the secret writing.
Q What
did he say it was to be used for?
A For
communication between ourselves in the
Q Did
he say what kind of communication?
A He
said, first of all -- he told us that we should not write unless absolutely
necessary, and he said if we should write, we should only write where to meet.
Q What
about the names and addresses on the handkerchiefs? What did Kappe say about that?
A He
didn’t say anything to us, or to the members of the groups. In fact, I myself knew about the handkerchief
on Sunday after we landed here.
Q Who
told you about it?
A George.
Q What
did George say to you about it?
A He
told me that his handkerchief was important, that he had some important notes
on it.
2628
Q Did
he say what the names were to be used for?
A He
didn’t tell me that there were names on.
In fact, I was asked about it and I explained that there was a
handkerchief with some writing on, but I said that I did not know if the
handkerchiefs contained formulas for the explosives what it was.
Q Did
George show it to you?
A No.
Q He
told you about it?
A Yes.
Q Did
you not ask him what it was to be used for?
A No,
sir.
Q What,
exactly, did he say? He said it was an
important handkerchief and then did not say any more?
A He
told me on Sunday morning that besides his statement he had to make in
Q But
you did not ask him anything about it then?
A No,
sir.
Q Now,
Pete, --
A Pardon
me. He told me that this handkerchief
would be important because it contained secret writing.
Q But
you did not ask him anything when he said that?
A I
was afraid that he would explain that.
It was very hard to ask him anything.
Q And
you did not ask him?
A I
didn’t ask him. I didn’t have a chance.
Q When
you got back to
2629
A After
I came out of the Gestapo.
Q You
were doing some kind of military police work?
A No. I was in the prisoners’ camp as a guard, as a
soldier.
Q You
were a guard of prisoners in the camp?
A Yes.
Q What
kind of an oath did you take? Did you
take any oath when you went into the army?
A Yes.
Q What
oath was it, if you can repeat the oath?
A Allegiance
to Adolf Hitler as the highest commander of the army.
Q It
was an oath of allegiance to Hitler?
A As
the highest commander.
Q Did
you take any other oath when you were in
A To
what camp -- to the school?
Q To
the sabotage camp.
A No,
sir.
Q You
did not take any oath then?
A No,
sir.
Q You
signed a contract?
A Yes.
Q Did
you see it? Did you see what was in it?
A Yes.
Q What
did the contract say?
A The
contract consisted of, I believe, three typewritten pages, and one page
consisted of all the penalties which came due when the man who signs the
contract ever says anything about it.
That consisted of one page.
2630
Q Did
the contract say what you were doing?
A No,
sir.
Q Did
it say whether you belonged to the army?
A Yes. It was a contract given by the High command
of the German Army.
Q The
contracts were all alike, were they?
A No;
they were all different.
Q You
are speaking now if your own contract?
A Yes.
Q You
do not know what Haupt’s contract was, do you?
A No,
sir.
Q Do
you know anything about any of the other contracts?
A No,
sir. I only know what they have told me.
Q Your
contract was with the high command?
A Yes,
sir, absolutely, sir.
Q Do
you remember how the uniforms were issued to you?
A Yes;
I remember.
Q Where
did you get yours?
A In
Q Were
those navy uniforms?
A Fatigue
uniforms.
Q You
went down there. Did you have to give an
y receipt for them?
A No.
Q They
just issued them to you?
A Yes.
Q What
did they issue -- pants, cap, shoes and socks?
A Shoes,
socks, pants, coat and cap -- no belts.
2631
Q Like
the ones you saw in court here?
A Yes;
but no belts.
Q When
you came over on the submarine were you under the command of the captain of the
submarine?
A Yes.
Q And
all the other boys were under his command?
A Yes.
Q He
was a member of the navy?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Now,
Pete, there was some talk about Quirin having said something to you about being
nervous as to the leadership of the group.
Do you remember that?
A As
to George Dasch being the leader; yes.
Q What
did Quirin say?
A I
will have to explain that. It goes
farther back. The actions of George
Dasch were so that nobody or no one particular group had confidence in him.
Q I
do not understand that. Colonel
Royall. Let him answer the
question.
The Witness. May I explain?
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Yes.
A It
was a reaction to George Dasch’s behavior.
Quirin and also Heinck and I myself, we didn’t know what it was all
about; and in the conversation --
Q (Interposing)
I do not understand when you said you did not know what it was all about.
A We
did not know what he was up to; we didn’t understand him. My personal idea is if a small group of
soldiers
2632
was
to go to do a certain job or on a certain mission, that they have to be acting
together like soldiers. But it was not
in our case. It was a
misunderstanding. There was no
harmony. There was watching each
other. It was no good; the spirit was
not there. See? That was the reason why Quirin, as the second
leader, had the perfect right, and his duty was to watch that very closely, and
for that reason his idea and his wish came that if George Dasch kept on the way
he did, and if he disappeared a couple of days he would take over command. I think that is what you are referring to.
Q Quite
properly carrying out orders?
A Absolutely.
Q And
were the other members all suspicious of Dasch?
A I
am speaking now, sir, of our group.
Q I
know. But the other two boys were
suspicious of Dasch, were they?
A Yes. I too.
Q Suspicious
because you did not know whether he would carry out orders or not?
A Suspicious
because he acted queerly.
Q You
said you had no confidence in him. You
meant you had no confidence that he would do what he was told to do?
A I
am speaking now of the impression we had as the three members of the group, and
he was supposed to be the leader.
Q But
when you said you had no confidence --
A I
meant the feeling of the group as an entire group under the command of one man,
there was no confidence.
Q What
were you suspicious of -- that Dasch would not carry out his orders as he had
been told to do?
2933
A I
would not go so far as to say that. I
did not know if he wanted to carry out the orders. I only knew -- and we were talking about it
repeatedly -- that it was very funny with him, that he never did the expected
thing.
Q What
was the lack of confidence? Was it
because you thought he might not carry his orders out?
A In
fact, our first opinion was, Quirin, Heinck and myself -- our first opinion was
that he would get away with the money.
It was $80,000.
Q Was
it not true that you and Quirin thought he might not carry out his orders?
A More
or less; yes.
2634
Q When
did you have that opinion?
A I
had it in
Q In
A Yes.
Q You
were not suspicious of the other two, were you?
A No.
Q Pete,
you spoke, I think, of trying to get out of
A I
said it would have been a possible way to get out.
Q Did
you try to make some arrangements to get to
A No.
Q What
effort did you make to get out of
A Well,
as I told you., I wanted to find a legal way of getting out of Germany, and the
legal way to get anywhere in Europe is either with the party or with the army;
there is no other way.
Q Let
us see. How long were you in
A From
1933 -- July or June; I think July -- until now.
Q When
did you first decide you wanted to get out of
A On
the last of July, 1934.
Q 1934?
A Yes.
Q What
effort, except to join this sabotage gang, did you make to get our from
A I
tried to get into the Foreign Department.
I
2635
studied
or finished my education in the
Q Well,
were there any other efforts except what you have just described?
A I
wanted to get my American passport straight, and I talked to Miss Schultz -- I
mentioned her in the statement -- about it, with no success, until I had
finally the chance of coming over here.
Q Those
were all the efforts you made since 1934?
A Well,
they were continuous efforts to get out.
You see, at that time I had a very -- I had more chances. I mean at that time
Q Were
you an American in 1934?
A An
American?
Q Yes.
A I
think so.
Q Americans
were getting in and out of
A Yes.
Q In
1935?
A But
at the same time I was a member of the Party, and I was a former aide-de-camp
to Roehm. I could at no time either go
to an American consulate or have any connections personally; therefore, Miss
Schultz was kind enough to get in
2636
touch
with some people, but it wasn’t no good.
Q Did
you ever got to an American consulate?
A I
could not.
Q You
did not?
A I
could not.
Q But
you did not?
A Well,
I did not and could not, sir; I couldn’t afford to.
Q That
may be true, but I just want to be sure you did not.
A No,
I did not.
Q How
many Americans were getting into and out of
A I
don’t know; I suppose, especially during the Olympic games, thousands of them.
Q Were
you a loyal German when you were in
A In
1935? In 1935, sir, thousands of my
friends and comrades were shot.
Q Were
you a loyal German in 1935?
A I
say no.
Q I
think you have said that your first reason to get out was political.
A Yes.
Q Until
this mistreatment of your wife?
A Yes.
Q Then
the added reason became personal as well?
A Yes.
Q I
did not understand what you said about this
2637
possibility
of going to
A It
was the first proposition given to me by Lieutenant Kappe.
Q Did
Kappe suggest it?
A Yes.
Q Just
what is it? I did not quite get that
clearly.
A There
was a time when American technicians were employed by the English Government or
by some English industrial plants in the northern part of
Q You
did not hear any more about it?
A No,
sir.
Q I
think I understand pretty clearly you situation. It was that you could not get out illegally
because there would be reprisals?
A What
do you mean by reprisals?
Q I
mean that they would hurt your family in
A Yes,
that is right.
Q If
you gave yourself up over here on a mission, the same thing would happen, I
presume?
A I
don’t understand you, sir.
Q Suppose
you had surrendered yourself. If you had
surrendered yourself to the F.B.I. and the news had got back to
A Interposing
You mean now?
Q I
am talking about your state of mind in
A Yes.
Q You
came over here and never meant to go through
2638
with
this?
A Yes,
that is right.
Q If
that news had got back to
A I
know it, but that news never gets back to
Q This
Government is full of Gestapo agents over here?
A I
don’t know, sir.
Q You
were told it was?
A I
am not talking about the Government; I was only told that there might be, and
that there are some agents working for the Gestapo, or members of the Gestapo,
even in the F.B.I. That was a
conversation I overheard.
Q Well,
did you feel pretty certain when you left Germany that there was no chance of
the news getting back to Germany after you had given yourself up?
A I
don’t understand.
The Attorney General. Will you please repeat the question, Mr. Reporter?
The Reporter (reading):
“Question. Well, did you feel pretty certain when you
left Germany that there was no chance of the news getting back to Germany after
you had given yourself up?”
The Witness. No, I don’t think there is a chance.
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q When
you were in
2639
thought
that that news would never get back to
A When
I was in Germany, sir, I didn’t think that anything would happen over here,
with the exception of getting first to the United States, see? And secondly, to make it impossible to use
the explosives, and third, it would have a very long time to prepare, by all
these formulas, now explosives.
Q But
your main purpose was to protect your family, wasn’t it, otherwise you would
have got out illegally?
A Well,
there was no chance to get out legally.
Q Illegally,
I said.
A Illegally? I am not going illegally anywhere.
Q That
was to protect your family, was it not?
A Certainly.
Q So,
that was your main consideration, was it not?
A It
was. It wasn’t only my main
consideration. I don’t see why I should
go out illegally if there is some way to get out legally.
Q If
you could have got out illegally and your family would have been protected, you
would not have objected, would you?
A That
is not combination; that is impossible.
Q Why?
A Because
it is impossible; you can’t get out of
Q Then,
your reason for getting out legally was to protect your family?
A Well,
partly.
Q Was
there any other reason?
2640
A No.
Q Tell
me a little about the landing on the beach.
It was very dark and foggy, was it not?
A I
still do not say -- Pardon me, sir; I have to come back to that. It was not the only reason to get out.
Q All
right; what was it?
A If
I had a chance and there were a chance to get out illegally -- out of
Q What
was your reason?
A Because
a man doesn’t go out illegally anywhere.
Q Do
you mean you would have hesitated to go over the Swiss Border and sneak out of
A Not
wrong. I wouldn’t say wrong.
Q Why
would you not have done it, then? Do you
think a man does not do that?
A That
is right.
Q Did
you think that would have been much worse than coming over with a sabotage
crowd?
A That
has nothing to do at all, because I came over here legally, on a German order,
see? I don’t have any reason to sneak
away, have I?
Q The
only reason, the real reason, is it not true, why you did not want to try to
get out over the Swiss Border was the Gestapo?
A That
was one of the reasons. I told you it
would have meant the arrest of my people.
Q So
it always comes back to that.
2641
A If
I would have not had any people over there, I still would have not sneaked out.
Q Why?
A Because
I don’t have to. Because why should
I? I have to find a legal way; that is
what I did.
Q You
would rather come out legally in a submarine rather than go out illegally over
the Swiss Border?
A Pardon
me; I don’t understand.
The Attorney General. Will you please repeat the question?
The Reporter (reading):
“Question. You would rather come out legally in a
submarine than go out illegally over the Swiss Border?”
Question by the Attorney General:
Q Pete,
I want to come back to the early morning that you landed in Amagansett. The morning you landed in Amagansett it was
quite dark and foggy, was it not?
A Yes
Q You
had certain objects and put them along the beach?
A That
is right.
Q One
was a half empty bottle of schnapps?
A That’s
right.
Q Where
did you put that?
A I
stuck it in the sand, sir.
Q Standing
up?
A Standing
up.
Q Buried
in the sand?
2642
A Not
buried, but just stuck in.
Q The
other was a half smoked package of cigarettes?
A Yes.
Q You
threw them somewhere?
A A
white silver package of box like this.
Q You
put that in the sand?
A
Lay it on the sand.
Q How
far from the buried boxes?
A Very
far from the spot where the boxes were buried last.
Q How
far?
A I
can’t say sat that -- how far.
Q How
far away was the bottle? Do you know
that?
A Well,
if you follow our way from the water edge, part of the sand beach, you would
find the box of cigarettes right -- well, at some distance from the water
edge. Then small pieces came -- small
pieces of wooden fence, and close to it was the bottle. Then it goes up the bank, and on top of the
bank was the raincoat. Then you could
follow all small sand pieces up a sand hill going land inwards along the bank
to a sand hole depression, where finally the boxes were.
Q Is
the bank like a sand dune?
A No,
it was weeds, wood, and stuff.
Q Was
it high or low tide when you landed?
A I
don’t know
Q Were
the cigarettes above the high water mark?
A I
don’t know what the water mark was.
Q You
did not notice how high the mark of the waves was up on the beach?
2643
A The
water did not reach the box when I was there.
Q How
far from the boxes?
A Well,
I am talking about the cigarette box now.
Q How
far was the cigarette box?
A From
the explosives of the water?
Q From
the water?
A I
don’t know that.
Q A
hundred yards?
A Oh,
no.
Q Fifty
feet?
A No,
no
Q Not
that far?
A Not
that far.
Q Ten
Feet?
A It
might be less that ten feet, I think.
Q You
don’t know whether it was high or low water at that time?
A I
don’t remember that.
Q Let
us see what the objects were.
A May
I explain that to you, sir?
Q Surely.
A I
was very excited, naturally, in a state of mind where I didn’t recognize
anything. It was foggy. I was thoroughly wet, because three of four
big waves hit me, and I just ran out of this boat, having the suitcase, and
then taking the cigarette box out of my pocket and putting it, as I remember,
flat on the sand. I cannot recall how
far it was from the water edge.
Q Let
us see. There were cigarettes, a bottle,
and the
2644
coat. What other objects did you put down?
A Well,
small pieces of clothing.
Q How
big were the pieces of clothing? What
kind of clothing was it?
A I
suppose bathing trunks and the vest -- folded vest.
Q You
did put those down on the beach?
A No,
not on the beach; up on the bank.
Q Near
the boxes?
A Well,
on the way towards the boxes; towards this sand depression.
Q How
many objects were there? Five or six?
A I
don’t remember.
Q You
don’t remember how many there were?
A No, I don’t remember
Q You
put those there so that, you thought, whoever was looking for the boxes could
follow each one, and they would lead to the boxes; is that right?
A I
left tracks by throwing different items down and left a way marked.
Q Clearly
marked?
A Yes.
Q Clearly?
A I
suppose.
Q Clear
enough. Would it not have been a little
more simple and a little more certain if you have called up a policeman and
told him where the boxes were?
A On
the beach?
Q Anywhere.
A That
was done, sir, after we left the boxes, before
2645
the
cigarette box was put down and my cap was thrown somewhere.
Q Why
did you not go up to the Coast Guard and report it?
A Well,
may I explain to you, sir?
Q Surely.
A When
we landed and we jumped out of his boat, in order to make it real fast and the
boat can go back to the submarine again, I tried to explain to you that I put
down three different items before even the Coast Guard man stepped up; and
before the Coast Guard man came, I did not know that there was a Coast Guard
station around or where we were. It was
so foggy that we did not, in fact, see from the water edge the bank or houses or
anything.
Q Had
you decided before to report it at all?
A I
didn’t think of anything but getting away from that beach.
Q When
you cam over on the submarine, did you decide to report it?
A I
decided that I had, as I told you -- that I had to make it impossible to have
the explosives used by the members of my group.
Q Did
you decide while coming over on the submarine that you were going to report it?
A I
decided to make our plan or our orders to fail.
Q I
understand that, but you have not answered the question.
A Well,
it is pretty hard for me to answer the question.
Q Did
you decide on the submarine that you were going to report this to the proper
officials?
2646
A I
did.
Q When
did you decide that?
A Well,
I don’t think anyone could answer that question, sir.
Q But
you let a week go by in all before any report was made, did you not?
A As
soon as -- on the very evening of the day of the landing, George Dasch took the
whole business over on his hands, and I was very happy to hear him explain why,
and then his ideas. He talked very long
on that.
Q Did
you trust Dasch?
A I
did.
Q You
have confidence in him?
A Absolutely.
Q For
some purpose but not for others?
A Well,
I don’t understand your question.
Q You
had confidence in him for some purposes, but you did not have confidence in him
for other purposes?
A I
don’t know what you man by “other purposes.”
Q I
though a little while ago you said you did not have much confidence in Dasch.
A A
little while ago -- Pardon me, sir; I have to explain to you. A little while before, I was talking about
the feeling of our group as subordinates of the leader.
Q Were
you not afraid that he would steel some of the money?
A When? Saturday or Sunday?
Q At
any time.
A Not
after we had our talk.
2647
Q But
before you had your talk?
A Before,
not only I but we all had the feeling anyone has of a man he doesn’t know very
well and acts funny and carries a suitcase with $82,000.
Q So,
as soon as you had your talk, your confidence was completely restored?
A After
that it was restored -- Yes, that is right.
Q You
had never suspected Dasch of giving this away before you had your talk with
him, had you?
A No. Of giving it away? No, but I also didn’t expect him to carry out
the orders which were given to him over there.
Q When
did you first cone to that conclusion?
A I
cam to that conclusion, as I tried to explain before, all along during the
school.
Q You
never thought Dasch would carry out the orders?
A I
mentioned that before.
Q I
say, you never thought he would carry them out?
A I
tried to explain; I am sorry I can’t express myself. It’s very hard to explain to you that his
actions were not so -- as the actions of a leader would be of a group of
soldiers who are just -- before action.
Understand what I mean?
2648
Q He
was not very soldierly?
A That’s
not the point. That is one point. You may put it that way.
Q How
about the other boys?
A You
see, I can’t explain that very good. I
am a soldier, and he is not.
Q I
see that.
A But,
positively, his actions were not as a soldier and they were not as a saboteur,
or whatever you call it.
Q How
about the other boys? What were their
actions?
A He
took up all the time of our consideration.
There was no chance to consider anyone else. That is the major fact. It is really not to laugh; it is a fact,
because, you see -- May I explain a little further?
Q Yes.
A Because
if you should follow our way from Berlin to the school, to the different
industrial plants, from Berlin to Paris, From Paris to Lorient, and from
Lorient finally on the submarine to the coast of the United States, and there
was not one order given by our superiors he would not do the opposition -- you
know, the contrary -- not the order.
There wasn’t one place where he did anything that wasn’t wrong in the
eyes of people -- you know what I mean.
Even on the train he lost his papers and made a lot of trouble for
anyone connected. So naturally the
feeling wasn’t very high for competent leader of an undertaking like this.
Q Now,
Pete, let us go back to this question of the gold certificates. I was not quite clear about that. You said it did not worry you that you might
be arrested. As I understand
2649
it,
what worried you was that you might be picked up for having gold
certificates? Well, I do not quite
understand what your explanation was.
What was your state of mind when you found there gold certificates in
the belts?
A My
state of mind was, here is another proof that Mr. Kappe and all the officials
over there don’t give a dam for the tools they use, only for the special
purpose they have in mind. What happens
to the guy who does it doesn’t make any difference.
Q Were
you afraid that the gold certificates would get you in trouble?
A I
wasn’t afraid for myself. I didn’t even
consider myself. I only considered the
effect, see.
If you tried to get a picture of the
whole situation, that there were eight men living on two submarines to a
foreign country, on a mission like we had, and they give a man money which
immediately gets him into trouble --
Q What
did the gesture mean? You did not finish
your sentence.
A I
am quite sure you understand what I mean.
Q It
is bad business to do that kind of thing?
A It
is not only bad business. It is a dirty
trick. And besides that, not only do
they give you the wrong money; they don’t give you as much as they tell you is
in the belt. In this country you call
people like that chiseler.
Q I
think I would call them worse that that.
Did you think they double-crossed you when they put gold certificates
in?
2650
A I
know that, because they made money on that.
They made money on the very fact that they sent us on a dangerous
mission. They even made money when we
were back there yet.
Q And
you all expected to get more money?
A I
did not expect more money. It was not of
any importance for me how much money I had, but it was important for me that if
they say in the belt there is $4,000, that there really are $4,000, see. It means that I must have the feeling I can
depend on my superiors as a soldier. If
I have a proof that I cannot depend on them, that they are lying to me, that
there is a carelessness which means punishment for me and trouble for all of
us, I can’t respect them and I can’t take them as a leader.
Q Pete,
did you have a feeling that they were all right up to that gold certificate
episode? You depended on them up to
then?
A I
did not depend on them at all.
Q You
had a feeling then you could depend on them as a soldier up until the gold
certificates were found?
A No. On whom do you mean?
Q On
your superiors, as a soldier.
A No,
I did not have that feeling, and, in fact, I did not have that feeling from the
very first day when I got there.
Q Well,
then, the gold certificates episode did not really surprise you very much, did
it? It did not bother you much, did it?
A It
bothered me -- well, I don’t know what you mean by that question.
Q Well,
you said you had not depended on them at all,
2651
so
when you got these gold certificates, which was so careless, I suppose that is
what you suspected all along?
A Well,
it convinced me that all along I was not wrong in my opinion.
The Attorney General. Perhaps it would be fair to the witness --
Colonel Royall. It is all right. Either way you want to do.
Are you getting along alright,
Pete? Are you tired?
The Attorney General. Does the Commission wish to tale a recess?
The President. The session is opened.
Colonel Munson. The witness is reminded he is still under
oath.
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Pete,
were you told, shortly before leaving
A I
did not get this question.
(The last question was read by the
reporter)
A Not
in
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q In
the school you were told that every member of both groups had been assigned a
number in the German Army?
2652
A I
don’t know about numbers, but they were assigned to the German Army.
Q They
were all assigned to the German Army before coming over?
A Yes.
Q All
of them?
A I
imagine so, sir.
Q Who
told you that?
A Kappe.
Colonel Royall. I believe the other defendants should move to
strike out what Kappe says, as far as concerns them. I did not know the question was going to be
in that form. Of course, as far as this
defendant is concerned, there is no objection; but as far as what Kappe told
this defendant about the others is concerned, I think that is incompetent.
The Attorney General. The whole proceeding, ever since these
defendants have been cross-examined, has been permitting to say what Kappe told
them right along. This objection seems
to me to come a little late.
Colonel Royall. I do not mind disclosing just what I have in
mind about it. I think the Attorney
General knows.
One or possible more of the defendants
have testified that they were not given any numbers or were not members of the
Army; and it seems to me, as a practical and reasonable matter, it is a little
unfair to contradict them by what somebody told this witness.
I am confident that this witness is
telling the truth if he says someone told him that, and if this witness had
known it
2653
of
his own knowledge there would not be any objection to it; but it does seem to
me that the testimony as to what Kappe told the defendant Burger in
Now, it is true that we have asked
these witnesses their conversations with Kappe.
Both sides have done that. But
that is where the conversation related to the defendant who was on the stand,
and I do not think there has been any effort to prove facts against the other
defendants by what somebody said. I ask
that that be stricken.
The Attorney General. I consider this exceedingly evidence. The evidence is that the man in charge of
these two groups had stated specifically that they had been assigned to the
German Army, to units on the German Army.
I think that is important evidence.
Leaving aside the hearsay rule, it seems to me it would convince any
reasonable man that they had been assigned to those units. This is very important evidence for the
prosecution. There fore I ask that it be
not struck out.
The President. Have you any remarks, Colonel Ristine?
Colonel Ristine. I make the same motion with respect to the
defendant Dasch. I am sure that Dasch
testified that he was a member of the armed forces, and, of course, I take the
position that it could not be proven that he was a member of the armed forces
by what some other witness testified about some statement that somebody else
made to him.
2654
The Attorney General. There is one technical consideration that is
important to my argument, and that is this.
Charge 4 of the changes provides this specification:
“In that during the year 1942 the
prisoners,” and then their names are mentioned, “being enemies of the United
States and acting for and on behalf of the German Reich, and belligerent
nation, did plot, plan, and conspire with each other, with the German Reich” --
in other words, the conspiracy is with the Reich as well as among themselves.
Now, Kappe was an agent of the German
Reich, and therefore the charge is that Kappe, or the Reich represented Kappe,
was part of that very conspiracy.
Obviously, that confession of one of
the conspirators was made right in the beginning of the conspiracy. So that it seems to me, under the most highly
technical rules, that that admission of the Reich, made by its agent, is
obviously admissible against all of the other conspirators, because then
clearly there was no intimation that the conspiracy had finished. It was right in being at that very moment.
Therefore, from even a technical rule
of the admission of evidence applicable to the courts, which we have never
conceded in applicable to this Commission, it seems to me that the statement of
confession of Kappe was clearly chargeable against these co-conspirators.
Colonel Royall. I just wanted to add this. The fact that it is material for the
prosecution to prove it is all the more reason why it ought to not be proven by
hearsay.
Of course, there is not objection from
the defendant Burger,
2655
because
he admits he was in the German Army and states the full facts about it. He is not objecting to it. But we are in a position where we represent
other defendants, and this was stated not when they were present, but it was
stated by a third person.
We move again that it be stricken as
to the other defendants.
The President. Close the Commission.
Would it be more convenient, from the
householding point of view and other reasons of both sided, that we should take
our
The Attorney General. I think, from household and other
arrangements, that if you took it now it would be a little more convenient from
our point of view.
Colonel Royall. That is entirely satisfactory, and I suggest
that we have as short a recess as the Commission finds convenient, because
there is not very much more testimony in this matter from the standpoint of the
defendants.
The President. Is
The Attorney General. Absolutely.
Colonel Royall. Yes.
(Thereupon, at
2656
AFTER RECESS
(The
commission reconvened at
The President. The Commission is open. Come to order, please.
Colonel Munson. The full personnel of the Commission, the
eight defendants, and the reporter are present.
The full Personnel of the prosecution except Colonel Treusch and MR.
Rowe is present. The full personnel of
the defense except Captain Bruton and Captain Hummell is present.
The President. The motion of the defense to strike is not
sustained. Proceed Please.
ERNEST PETER BURGER,
the
witness on the stand at the time of the
Colonel Munson. You are reminded that you are still under
oath.
The Witness. Yes, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Resumed
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Pete,
there are a few more questions I want to ask you. I think you said that Dasch had been studying
some records over in
A Yes.
Q What
records were they? Do you know?
A He
told me about the records of the Seibold case.
Q Did
he have other records he was studying?
A I
don’t know, sir.
2657
Q Did
he have the records of any individuals who might be used for sabotage?
A I
don’t know, sir.
Q Was
he pretty intimate with Kappe?
A He
was the leader of the group.
Q Was
he intimate with Kappe?
A Without
question
Q Did
he help Kappe organize this school, would you say?
A Well,
not the school, sir; the school as such was organized long before Kappe.
Q How
long had the school been going?
A I
don’t know.
Q You
don’t know if they had sent anybody else there before?
A Well,
I do know that they sent someone else and other groups to other countries.
Q Do
you know where they sent them?
A Well,
I know that before we started the course, there were Indians from
Q Do
you mean Indians had been trained from
A Yes.
Q You
do not know any of their names, I suppose?
A No,
sir.
Q Were
they sent out?
A I
imagine so, sir.
Q You
don’t know, though?
A Well,
they weren’t there any more when we came.
Q You
did not hear any more about whether they were
2658
sent
out?
A No,
I didn’t hear about it.
Q Did
you hear that any groups had been sent out?
A I
did hear that for quite a length of time continuously groups were sent out.
Q Did
you hear where they were sent?
A No
Q You
did not hear whether they were sent to
A I
didn’t hear that.
Q Or
A I
didn’t hear it, sir.
Q You
knew Barth, or course?
A Yes,
I did.
Q Was
Barth intimate with Dasch?
A Yes
Q Did
they work together in the organization of these two groups?
A I
don’t know. When I got acquainted with
Dasch, he stayed at the school, and Barth usually came out to the school for a
week end.
Q Was
Dasch with Barth a good deal?
A Not
more than the other boys.
Q What
would you have done with those formulas if you had not lost them?
A I
would have given them to Mr. Lanman.
Q What
would you have done if Dasch had not turned it in to the F.B.I.?
A I
would have turned it in myself.
Q When
did you decide to turn it in yourself?
2659
A I
decided that as soon as I came out of the Gestapo place that I found -- that I
would find a way to get even.
Q When
did you decide you would turn this material in to the F. B. I. if Dasch did not
turn it in?
A As
soon as I knew it was all about at the school.
Q At
the school did you decide that the F. B. I. were the people you would report it
to?
A No,
I didn’t know about the F. B. I.
Q Whom
did you decide at the school you would turn it in to?
A I
didn’t know that, sir.
Q You
just decided you would turn it in?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Was
Saturday, the 13th of June, the first intimation you had that anyone
else in the group was not going to go through with it?
Colonel Royall. Maybe he doesn’t know what “intimation”
means.
The Attorney General. I think he understands it.
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Do
you understand?
A Well,
I’m trying to understand, if you will give me time a little time to consider that.
Q Surely.
A You
mean the first idea that anyone else did not want to go through with it?
Q Yes.
A Well,
that was the first idea and the first -- well,
2660
the
first hunch, you would say.
Q The
first hunch?
A That
George Dasch would not go through with it; but, on the other hand, I had some
ideas that, for instance, Heinck could not go through with it.
Q I
think you said other people in the group were distrustful, did you not?
A Yea.
Q Who?
A Heinck
and Quirin.
Q You
spoke before we had a recess of Kappe’s telling you that all the members of
both groups who were not in the Army were all the members of both groups who
were not in the Army were assigned to the Army units. Was anyone else there when Kappe said that?
A Well,
I beg your pardon, sir, but it is not quits right.
Q I
am sorry; I misunderstood it.
A You
see, Neubauer, for instance, was in the Army.
Q I
said that anybody else who was not in the Army would be assigned to Army units.
A Yes,
that is right.
Q Was
anybody else there when Kappe said that to you?
A Well,
I tried to remember during the recess. I
believe that Eddie knew it.
Q Eddie
who?
A I
am not quite sure whether Werner Thiel.
Q Eddie
Kerling?
A Yes. I remember that -- I do know that Kappe told
me that, as a matter of fact.
2661
Q But
you are not sure --
A (Interrupting)
But I don’t know who was around.
Q But
you think Thiel and Kerling may have been there?
A I
believe they were there. It was on the
porch of this school towards the lake, and there were to other boys passing by;
in fact, just stopping and listening.
Q Have
you finished?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
any of the other boys in your group tell you that they had been assigned to
Army units?
A No;
Kappe told me.
Q Only
Kappe told you?
A Yes. But may I go back to what we were talking
about just before the recess, sir?
Q Surely;
go ahead.
A That
was the conspiracy.
Q Go
on. Go ahead, Pete
A Well,
my idea was that, as far as the conspiracy is concerned, that, for instance,
George Dasch and I had a conspiracy against Germany, if that is the
understanding of the meaning of the word.
Q Did
you want to make any further explanation?
A That
is all.
Q Did
Dasch say anything to you about being a Communist or having been a Communist?
A He
told me he got in touch, when he was in the German Army during the First World
War -- that he got in touch with a man who studied philosophy and that he had
some Communistic ideas, and that he studied that with this man.
2662
Q Did
he say whether he ever was a Communist?
A Well,
not with the same words.
Q Not
what?
A Not
with these words.
Q What
did he say about whether he was a Communist or not, if he did not use those
words? What did he say?
A I
don’t recall it.
Q Were
you mixed up in the Communist riots in
A Yes,
against the Communists.
Q When
was that?
A That
was from 1923 up to 1927.
Q Did
your connection with those riots have anything to do with your leaving the
country?
A Yes.
Q What?
A Well,
you see -- May I explain that?
Q Certainly.
A At
1927 we had more than 30 different political parties in Germany, but the only
two parties really fighting on the street -- that was the National Socialist
Party -- that is the storm troopers -- on one side, and the Communists on the
other side. So, of course, there was a
continuous friction between us -- two groups -- and the difficulties between
the tow parties, as extreme left and extreme right, were not only fought out by
speeches but by actual fighting.
For instance, in 1924, in the occupied
2663
also
up to 1933, when Hitler got finally the regime.
Q What
had the connection with the Communist riots to do with you leaving
A Well,
I belonged to the storm troopers, see?
Q Yes.
A Well,
it wasn’t safe for me any more to stay in
Q What
were the dates when you were working for Roehm as aid-de-camp?
A From
the fall of 1933 up to
Q How
soon after you got back to
A Well,
when I came back to
Q You
did rejoin it, didn’t you?
A Sure,
I did, with out rejoining -- with out filing any application, just because they
knew me as a member before that.
Q How
soon after you got back to
A Well,
I rejoined it -- you see, I got the membership certificate -- that book -- a
year later, in 1934; but I immediately had all the boys around my place as soon
as I got back.
Q From
a practical point of view, you rejoined it immediately and got the book
later? You were active in the Party at
once, were you not, as soon as you got back?
A Yes,
that is right.
2664
Q You
did not take any additional oath, I suppose, did you?
A No,
no.
The Attorney General. All right.
That is all.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions
by Colonel Ristine:
Q Do
you remember, Mr. Burger, and incident or two which occurred in the school,
which indicated to you what Dasch’s intentions may have been?
A No,
not of his intentions.
Q Let
me refresh your recollection by reading from page 33 of your statement. It is the third paragraph.
“It was during one of these
tests conducted by George Dasch that I first got together with him and began to
get some idea that he was not the absolute Nazi which he pretended to be.”
A Yes,
sir, I remember not.
Q Would
you tell the Commission about that incident?
A Yes
Q If
you recall?
A Yes. George, Dasch and I were walking from the
school to a small tavern near by, about 45 minuets to walk, and also he came to
talk on my experiences with the Gestapo, so I expressed my feelings quite
impulsively, and he immediately stopped me and told me I should not say one
more word about it; there would be a time when he about ask me more about
it. But he did not
2665
express
anything about his intentions.
Q Well,
now, the expression that you made to him were very bitter against the Gestapo,
were they not?
A They
were.
Q It
was during the statement of your bitterness that he stopped you?
A That
is right, sir.
Q He
then told you there would be a time and a place when he would reopen that
subject but for the time you must be quiet?
A That
is right.
Q If
Dasch had been a loyal Nazi at the time, he would have turned you in to his
superiors, would he not?
A That
is possible.
Q And
would have reported you? In fact, he
would have encouraged you to go ahead with your statement is he had been a
loyal Nazi, would he not?
A Yes,
sir, that is very possible.
Q Well,
then, did not that indicate to you that he was not the Nazi that he has
pretended to be?
A I
had this opinion not only from this statement or from this specific incident,
but I had this feeling not only this time but several times.
Q Would
you relate to us some of the other instances which gave you that same
impression of Dasch’s intentions?
A Well,
I don’t believe I am the only one who had this impression, sir; I think
everyone at the school had the same impression, because he did not act like a
Nazi. You see, he did not even know how
to act. In fact, I believe, and I
2666
have
the true impression, that he did everything t, as I said -- the opposition.
Q Did
you notice that he lacked interest in the school work?
A You
mean the he was not interested?
Q Yes.
A Yes,
I noticed that. Everybody noticed that.
Q That
caused you and the others, you say, to distrust him or to feel that he was not
or had not intention of carrying out the plan?
A I
wouldn’t go so far, sir.
Q How
far would you go?
A Well,
I would say that we all had the impression -- and I personally myself -- that
he was not interested to live up to the orders we had there, you see, and our
orders were to study, and seeing he wasn’t interested -- in my opinion, there
is only one way for a man to go, so it wasn’t the way he wanted to go.
Q In
other words, you thought he was opposed to carrying out the plans that were
made in the school; is that right?
A Well,
the carrying out part, you know, I don’t know, because he did not confide in
me; but I did know and I realized that by not studying, he was not able to
carry out any orders given to him, see?
Supposing, for instance, the
explosives were not in out hand -- the ready-made explosives were not in our
possession any more. He was not able to
prepare a single formula or a single explosive by formulas because he simply
did not know it.
Q In
other words, he had not studied then enough to
2667
know
even how to mix them?
A That
is right.
Q Therefore,
you thought he had no intention --
The Attorney General. Wait a minuet. He has already said “No” to that. You are trying to make him say it again.
Colonel Ristine. I do not think I am trying to make him say
anything, Mr. Attorney General.
The Attorney General. Well, I do.
Colonel Ristine. I am just trying to get his viewpoint about
the matter.
2668
Questions by Colonel Ristine:
Q Now,
what instruction had you received before you left this submarine with respect
to any patrol or any persons that you might meet on the shore?
A About
two or three hours before we left the submarine the captain called us down
around the table and, together with two sailors and all the officers, we spoke
about the landing.
Then the captain said in case -- or
the question was brought up, in case we run into any guards or watchmen on the
beach, what we should do. And the
captain said he purposely had picked out two very strong and tall sailors so we
could overpower the sailor without using any arms or with out anything and put
any guard or whatever his is back in the boat, and the two sailors were
supposed to bring the man back to the submarine.
Q Now,
Dasch did run into a patrol?
A Yes.
Q And
you came up to him while he was talking to that patrol, didn’t you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Was
the patrol armed?
A I
don’t know, sir. I don’t know.
Q Was
it just a one-man patrol?
A It
was one man, yes.
Q What
did Dasch say to you when you came up there?
How close did you get to the patrol?
A Well,
standing in front of him.
Q Just
right next to him?
2669
A About
that far (indicating).
Q By
“that far” you mean with in 2 feet of him?
A Yes.
Q Now,
would there have been any difficulty in overpowering that man?
A No.
Q And
would it have been an easy matter to carry out the instructions of the captain
of the submarine?
A Yes.
Q What
did Dasch tell you to do?
A I
should go back to the other two boys and keep there.
Q By
the “other two boys” you mean the other two of your group of four?
A Yes,
Hennery and Dick.
Q And
I believe that you later learned, in connection with the sailor, that Dasch has
instructed the two sailors to go back to the submarine?
A He
did.
Q And
they went back?
A Because
when I went down -- I first thought it was one of our sailors. Then I realized it was an American sailor,
and I didn’t see out sailors anymore, so they must have left at that time
already.
Q Now,
didn’t that also indicate to you that Dasch had no intention of carrying out
the plan?
A It
indicated that he did not follow the orders.
Q Of
the submarine captain?
A And
orders given to us by our superior officers.
Q You
mean by that the submarine captain?
2670
A Yes,
sir.
Q Now,
do you remember that Dasch told you, when you were in
A No,
he did not.
Q Well,
Don’t you remember that he told you that he either told or intended to tell
that newspaper man of his intentions of getting in touch with the F.B.I. upon
his landing in the
A That’s
right, Sir.
Q Where
did that conversation happen?
A He
told me on Sunday, the 14th -- 14th of June he told me
that he met some one of the newspaper men or someone who was to be exchanged, I
suppose, in Paris, and he reminded me when I passed him and this man in Paris,
at the foyer of the hotel, that I saw this man, It is a fact.
Q Had
you seen him with one American in
A I
don’t know if he was American. I saw him
sit with a man who, he explained that he was to tell the F.B.I. about
everything.
Q Now,
what did you tell the other two of your group with respect to the Guardsman
that you met on the beach?
A You
mean from the moment when I cam back, seeing the Coast Guardsman?
Q When
George told you to go back to the other boys and keep them there, or what ever
he said, what did you do to carry that out?
A As
clear and I recall it, I came back -- I had the sea
2671
bag
with me -- I came back to the two boys and told them, first of all,
“down.” I believe, as much as I
remember, I told them, “Down”, to crouch down -- and I explained to them that
there was an American sailor, or something, because I saw that white cap and
that everything would be O.K., that George takes care of him, that he gave him
some money, and that’s all, I think.
Q Well,
did they want to carry out, or did either one of them want to carry out, the
order of the captain of the submarine?
Colonel Royall. Objection.
Of course, there is no objection from the standpoint of the defendant
Burger, because it does not concern him, but to ask him what some other
defendant wanted to do, when nobody can possibly know that, is not proper. We object on behalf of the other defendants.
The President. Objection sustained.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Well,
did you carry out the orders and keep the other two boys away from the Coast
Guardsman?
A We
all kept away, sir.
Q All
three of you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q I
believe you explained to them that that was George’s order, that they should
remain there?
A Yes. In fact, we stayed there -- we stayed at the
same place until George came back, and then after George cam back we went up
the bank. We did not leave before George
came back.
Q When
was it that George explained to you the first time that he did not want to harm
that Coast Guardsman?
2672
A When
we waited for -- when we sat down the first time and waited for the sky to get
lit -- you know, for the dawn. When we
waited for dawn, then he explained to us what was going on with the Coast
Guardsman, that he gave him some money.
He told us about that -- that he told the boy about his father and
mother, and all that. He also told us
about hearing from
Q Didn’t
George tell you the Guardsman name?
A Yes,
he did. That was later.
Q Oh,
Later? Now tell me about the
conversation that Dasch has with you when he told you the Guardsman name and
that he wanted you to remember it. Now,
what did he say in that connection?
A After
we had started out from our -- from this place where we sat down and we waited
for light, for morning, Dasch and I walked together on the concrete road, and
he told me I should listen very carefully and remember the name Frank Collins
as the name of the Coast Guards boy, because there would be a day when I had to
remember that name and when he would use this name.
Q Did
he tell you where he would use the name?
A He
told me that in connection with
Q With
A Yes,
sir.
Q Now, when was the first conversation you had after a