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Cover Sheet
STENOGRAPHIC
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Before
the
MILITARY
COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS CHARGED WITH
OFFENSES
AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE
ARTICLES
OF WAR
_______________
Washington,
D. C.
Volume
XIV
Pages 2293 to 2496
2293
CONTENTS
Friday,
July 24, 1942
Name of Witness |
Direct |
Cross |
Redirect |
Recross |
by Commission |
Herbert Joannes Wilhelm Godhelp Haupt |
2296 |
2298 |
|
|
|
Werner Edward Thiel |
2299 |
2300 |
|
|
|
Edward John Kerling |
2302 |
2333 |
2408 |
2414 |
2416 |
Heinrich
Harm Heinck |
2423 |
2435 |
2455 2258 |
|
2457 |
Richard
Quirin |
2461 |
2474 |
2487 2292 |
2293 |
2488 2294 |
EXHIBITS
Prosecution |
For Identification |
In Evidence |
Read In Record |
261 Kelly’s registration at Commodore Hotel |
2378 |
2380 |
2379 |
262 Kelly’s registration at Hotel Seminole |
2378 |
2380 |
2379 |
263 Letter |
2389 |
|
2389 |
263-A Envelope |
2389 |
|
|
264 Letter |
2395 |
|
2396 |
264-A Envelope |
2395 |
|
|
265 Letter |
2401 |
|
2402 |
265-A Envelope |
2401 |
|
|
--ooOoo--
2294
STENOGRAPHIC
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Before
the
MILITARY
COMMISSION TO THE PERSONS CHARGED WITH
OFFENSES
AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE
ARTICLES
OF WAR
_______________
Washington,
D. C.
The Military Commission appointed by the
President by order dated July 2, 1942, met, in room 5235 Department of Justice,
at 9:30 o’clock a. m., to try for offenses against the Law of War and Articles
of War, the following persons: Ernest Peter Burger, George John Dasch, Herbert
Haupt, Heinrich Harm Heinck, Edward John Kerling, Hermann Neubauer, Richard
Quirin and Werner Thiel.
PRESENT: Members
of the Military Commission, as follows:
Major General
Frank B. McCoy, President,
Major General Walter S.
Grant,
Major General Blanton
Winship,
Major General Lorenzo D.
Gasser,
Brigadier General Guy V.
Henry,
Brigadier General John T.
Lewis,
Brigadier General John T.
Kennedy.
As
Trial Judge Advocates:
Major General
Myron Cramer,
The
Judge Advocate General,
Colonel F. Granville
Munson,
Colonel John M.
Weir.
Officers
of the Judge Advocate General’s Department.
As Provost Marshall:
Brigadier General
Albert L. Cox.
2295
As
Counsel for the Accused except George John Dasch:
Colonel Kenneth
Royall,
Major Lauson H. Stone.
As
Counsel for the Accused George John Dasch:
Colonel Carl L.
Ristine.
- - -
- -
PROCEEDINGS
The President.
The session is open.
Colonel Munson. If the Commission please, the full personnel
of the Commission, the eight accused, and the reporter are present. The personnel of the prosecution is present
except at the present time lacking the presence of the Attorney General, Mr.
Cox, Mr. Rowe, Colonel Treusch and Major Thurman. The personnel of the defense is present
except—
Colonel Royall (interposing). If the Commission please, Colonel Dowell is
not here at the moment, apparently because I have noticed that the clock in his
room is about 5 minutes behind this one.
But he is on his way here.
The President.
We will recess until the arrival of the counsel, if there is no
objection.
(An
informal recess was taken, in the course of which the Attorney General and
Colonel Dowell entered the court room, after which the following occurred:)
The President. The session is open.
Colonel Munson. The defense staff is present except Captain
Hummell and Captain Bunton who are temporarily absent
from the court room. The Attorney
General, Colonel Dowell and Mr. Cox have now resumed their seats.
2296
Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, I desire to recall
the witness Herbert Haupt for one or two additional questions.
The Attorney General. No objection.
Colonel Munson. Haupt, you are reminded that the oath which
you took the other day is still binding upon you. You have been sworn as a witness.
The Defendant Haupt. Yes, sir.
HERBERT JOANNES WILHELM GODHELP HAUPT
was
recalled as a witness for the defense and, having been previously duly sworn,
testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q The
other day you were asked by the Attorney General for some information relative
to a lawyer whom you met in Japan, and at that time I believe you recalled
either his true name or the name he was using, but you did not recall the other
name, and you thought you might thing of it later. Can you give the Attorney General any
additional information about that lawyer?
Have you recalled any additional facts?
A I
met the lawyer on the Gynio Maru,
and his real name is Arwald. He was a lawyer in
The
Attorney General. With what?
The
witness. The All-American Plan. He had a book on the All-American Plan.
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q What
name was he using?
A He
used the name of Ross, and he went to
2297
in
Japan, and I know he went to Shanghai, and he was going to work with short
wave, some sort of radio broadcasting, and he had a wife and one child. They are not in the
Q Herbert,
I think it is clear on the record, but let me ask you about your addresses in
A I
did.
Q Then
your mother left for
A That
is right.
Q And
you and your father lived at your Uncle Walter’s during that time?
A While
my mother was in
Q And
then you lived outside of
A We
moved to Glencoe where my mother and father got a job and stayed there for
about a year and moved to
Q What
apartment did you get back in
A The
apartment on
Q The
one you lived in the month before you left?
A Yes,
sir.
Q So,
2298
month
before you left?
A No;
that is not right. We moved to
A That
is right.
Colonel Royall. That is all I care to ask.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q You
say you met Arwald on the boat. What was the date?
A I
do not know what date. He was a
first-class passenger.
Q About
when? When was it that you saw him?
A In
August some time.
Q August
of what year?
A 1941.
Q Was
he going over to broadcast for the Japanese government?
A I
didn’t know at the time. He told me that
later when I spoke to him in
Q He
told you he was going to broadcast for the Japanese government?
A He
was going to work for the Japanese government; and they sent him to
Q Where
did he live in
A In
Q Where;
do you know?
2299
A No. He said he was a lawyer in
Q Do
you know any of his friends over here?
A No;
I had never met the man, never had seen the man before.
The Attorney General. That is all.
Colonel Royall. That is all.
The President. Are there any questions by the
Commission? (No response) There seem
[6w]
to be none. The witness may be excused.
(The witness resumed his
seat as one of the accused.)
Colonel Ristine. I would like to recall the witness Thiel for
a few questions.
Colonel Royall. We have no objection.
The Attorney General. We have none.
Colonel Munson. Thiel, you are reminded that the oath which
you took the other day is still binding and you are still under oath.
The Defendant Thiel. Yes, sir.
WERNER EDWARD THIEL
was
recalled as a witness for the defense and, having been previously duly sworn,
testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Werner,
I believe you testified that you met Mr. Dasch on the way to
A Yes,
sir.
Q Could
you tell us about how many there were on that boat that were going to
A I
think a little over forty; maybe 42 or 45; something like that.
2300
Q Do
you remember that they had some informal meetings and sang some of the German
folk songs?
A Yes. They sat together in the evenings and sang
some songs.
Q Were
there any in the group that objected because Mr. Dasch did not enter into those
festivities?
A Some
of the fellows were always against George.
Q And
that was one of the reasons they were against him, because he did not take part
in the singing of those songs?
A He
did not take part in the singing of those songs, and besides they did not trust
him.
Q What
did they think Dasch was? What did they
say about him?
A Some
of the fellows thought he was an F.B.I. agent, being on the boat to watch the
other fellows.
Q Did
you know anything about a fight that he had with two or three of them on the
boat?
A No;
I didn’t know anything about that.
Q You
did not know about that?
A No,
sir. But he had always arguments with
some of the fellows.
Colonel Ristine. That is all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q What
did he argue about?
A They
always argued about politics and about the ways in
Q You
and George did not agree?
A I
didn’t say “I.”
2301
Q I
thought you said “we.”
A George
didn’t agree with the other fellows.
Q What
were George’s politics, if you know?
A Well,
he always—at that time he spoke much about people in Poland, how they were
treated, and even the occupied territories, and George didn’t agree with them
when they thought they were treated all right.
Q Was
he a Communist?
A No;
I don’t think he was. At least—I don’t
know.
The Attorney General. That is all.
Colonel Ristine. No further questions.
The President. Are there any questions by the
Commission? (No response) There seem to be none.
(The witness resumed his
seat as one of the accused.)
Colonel Royall. If the Commission please, the defendant
Edward Kerling desires to take the stand.
The President. It is my duty to read to you and explain that
you have the legal right now to do any one of several things, just as you
choose. First, if you want to do so, you
may be sworn as a witness and testify under oath in this case like any other
witness; or, second, if you do not want to be sworn as a witness, you may, without
being sworn, say anything about the case to the Commission that you desire;
that is, make what is called an unsworn
statement. Or you may, if you wish, file
a written statement with the Commission; or you may, if you wish, keep silent
and say nothing at all.
If you do take the witness stand and
fail to deny or satisfactorily explain any of the alleged wrongful acts about
which you testify at all, about which any evidence has been
2302
presented
against you here, such failure on your part may be commented on to the
Commission by the prosecution counsel when his argument is presented to the
Commission at the end of the trial, and the Commission can take it into
consideration in determining whether you are guilty or innocent of the
offenses.
Do you understand fully all that I
have said to you so far?
The Defendant Kerling. Yes, sir.
The President. Knowing these various rights, you are advised
to consult with your counsel and then state to the court which you will do.
The Defendant Kerling. I have consulted with counsel and I will take
the stand.
The President. All right.
The witness may be sworn.
Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall now
give in the case on hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
The Defendant Kerling. I do, sir.
EDWARD JOHN KERLING
was
called as a witness for the defense and testified as follows:
Colonel Munson. What is your full name?
The witness. Edward John Kerling.
Colonel Munson. You are one of the accused in this case?
The witness. Yes, sir.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q
Eddie, how old are you?
A Thirty-three
years.
Q Where
were you born?
2303
A Weisbaden, Biebrich.
Q Let
me suggest to you that you talk a little more slowly than you started out, so
that everyone can hear and understand you.
When did you first come to
A In
March, 1939.
Q How
long did you live in
A Until
June ’40—June or July; I am not quite sure.
I
think it was July.
Q Did
you marry while you were in this country?
A I
married in 1931.
Q Whom
did you marry?
A A
German girl by the name of Maria Siehart.
Q Are
you and have you always been a German citizen?
A Yes;
I have.
Q And
your wife is a German citizen?
A Yes,
too.
Q There
has been introduced in evidence in this case certain statements signed by
you. On the occasion or in connection
with the signature of any of these statements did you receive any mistreatment
of any kind from any F.B.I. agent? And,
if so, describe it to the Commission; and I want you to describe it without any
exaggeration, but just exactly as you recall it occurred.
A The
only time I was mistreated was on the first night I was apprehended. I was picked up, I think it was around
2304
and
that was by Mr. Donegan. In there was
the agent in charge, Drayton. For a
while they questioned me and I didn’t give them the right answers and knew I
didn’t give them the right answers, and they expected another answer from me,
and they started to argue with me, and Donegan got mad with me. I couldn’t keep my eyes open. I was shocked and tired. Donegan was sitting to the left of me and
Drayton in front of me, and they had a big map they tried to show me. Donegan got mad and pulled my hair and drew
me down, tipped me over on his lap and took his hand and slapped my face. After a while he took me out and then a
doctor came in. The doctor had a habit
of asking me, “How have you been treated?” He asked that question every time he came to
see me later, too. I said, “All right,
so far, but Donegan hit me in the face,” or “I was pushed in the face by
Donegan,” or something to that effect.
After that Donegan took me out again
to the other office and asked me, “Did I hit you?” in a tone that I should
think if I said yes he would give me a good beating. In order to get out of this I said, “No; you
didn’t.” And he took me out to the
doctor again and asked the doctor to ask me if I was hit; and in order to stop
that I told the doctor I had not been hit.
But it was the only time I was
mistreated. About the other agents I
have no complaints to make.
Q Did
any of the other agents in any manner mistreat you?
A No. All the rest of them acted very nice.
Q That
night were you kept up all night and question-
2305
ed?
A I
was kept up all night. I tried to sleep
once in a while. I asked them to let me
sleep, but they wouldn’t. I was kept up
until the morning. A 9 or 10 they took me
out for a little while and I slept for about half an hour, and I was take down
again and taken to Florida.
Q I
believe the first information you gave the agents was not correct?
A Partly
correct and partly incorrect.
Q Why
did you give them incorrect information when you were first questioned?
A Well,
at first when I was picked up I knew Thiel would be picked up too. I had known that they knew everything and
there was no reason to deny anything, but I didn’t want Thiel to think that I
had given it out. I would rather he gave
the information. But the next morning
when I knew Thiel was questioned and was through, I told them I would go down
there with them to
Q Did
you go to
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
occurred in
A On
the way down I suffered from shock. I
didn’t sleep right and was nervous all night.
Down there we walked around on the beach trying to find those
boxes. I think we were on the beach at
dysentery.
2306
Q How
sick were you with dysentery?
A I
was quite sick. I took that medicine
that they gave. I couldn’t stand any
more.
Q Did
you have to stay in bed?
A Most
of the time I lay down; I couldn’t stand up—stand it.
Colonel Royall. Are any members of the Commission having any
difficulty in hearing this witness? His
pronunciation is not particularly good.
He talks a little rapidly, and I desire to caution him about it if it is
necessary to do so at any time.
The President. Apparently the members are hearing. I hear him all right.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q You
then gave another statement after you returned from
A The
first statement I gave on the days of the 26th and 27th,
and it was signed on the 28th.
The next statement I gave later.
I don’t know what date it was any more; I think it was signed on July 3.
Q When
did you go to
A I
think we left on the 24th and came back on the 26th in
the morning.
Q I
believe you signed a waiver after you came back from
A I
did. I didn’t sign that waiver—I didn’t want
to sign anything that first night. I
asked to see a lawyer, but that was denied, so I started to sign one waiver,
and I thought it over, and I said, “I
don’t want to sign any more papers.”
2307
I
said, “No, I don’t sign.”
But later on, after we came back from
Q Would
they ever have found the boxes if you had not shown them?
The Attorney General. I object.
Colonel Royall. We will withdraw the question, may it please
the Commission.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q How
were the boxes buried, Eddie?
A We
buried them in the night, and I wasn’t any too sure how they were buried; but
then after I came down and seen how they were buried, I knew there was hardly a
chance anyone would have found them if they hadn’t known the boxes were around.
The Attorney General. I think that is hardly responsive.
Colonel Royall. I myself think that is a conclusion, and I
have no objection to its being stricken out.
The Attorney General. I prefer a description. Let us have him
describe how the beach looked.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Do
not say whether they would have found them or not, but describe, when you went
there, just how you did find them buried or concealed.
A We
buried them in the night. All we could
see—it wasn’t any clear night. They were
right next to tree stumps; standing on a little hill, and palms all around. Then, we could measure about the distance by
walking back to Pointe
2308
Vedra. We knew about where it was. I remember there was one wire fence going out
to a street. When we came down, there
were cars, and we parked right there where it was, but I didn’t recognize it
right away from where we was. We walked
past down there about two miles, and I thought we were down too far, and we
walked back and found it by that marker I knew—by that fence. They were buried all right—deep—about this
deep in there (indicating)—and covered with sand off the beach.
Q When
you went back there, from the appearance of the ground could you have told
there had been anything buried?
A If
nobody had known, they wouldn’t have known it.
Q You
gave your signed statements on June 28 and July 3. Is the wording of these statements yours or
someone else’s?
A No,
that has been—the wording and phrasing has been done by the agents.. That is a condensation of questioning which
took place, I think, partly on the way down to
Q Are
there some errors in the statements? I
mean do they correctly state exactly what you said, or are there some errors in
them?
A There
are some errors in there. Some of it is
left out. One thing I know I state in
there; that I had given Dasch the address of my wife, which I couldn’t have,
because I didn’t know where my wife was living, so I had no address of her.
Q Did
you ever tell the F.B.I. that, or did they have the address?
A They
had it written down. They may have thought
I said something about my wife or didn’t get it right. They
2309
may
have misunderstood me. But I didn’t read
that statement.
Q You
yourself did not know your wife’s address?
A No,
I didn’t know it.
Q You
say you were born in
A Yes.
Q Is
your father living?
A My
father is still living.
Q What
position had he ever held in the German Army?
A He
was an officer in the last war.
Q While
you were here in
A Yes.
Q Did
you return to
A I
returned in 1933 and 1936 for short visits.
Q Were
you a member of the Nazi Party?
A Yes,
sir.
Q When
did you become a member?
A In
1928.
Q Do
you know whether you were one of the older members of the Party?
A I
belonged in
Q What
does that mean?
A An
organization with membership under 100,000 and having a special status in the
Party.
Q Do
you recall what your number was exactly?
A Around
70,000.
Q What
do you mean by “having special status in the Party”?
2310
A In
the Party and in
Q (Interposing) Severely?
A Severely—that
any other civilian or any other Party member.
In order to keep the Party clean.
Q You
were never a member of any Bund over here?
A I
never have been.
Q Before
you left here in 1940, had you and your wife had any misunderstanding? If so, what was it?
A Yes,
we had misunderstandings. My wife is a
little older than I am, and we had worked together in households. That means we are together day to day, and
that didn’t do any too good, but it was cleared up when I arranged for her to
come to
Q Did
she want that?
A Yes.
Q Whom
did she want you to marry?
A Hedy
Engemann.
Q But
before you left, you became friendly with your wife again?
A Yes. It was all cleared up. I promised her. I couldn’t take her along at that time; I
didn’t have any money here. So, I
said, “I will arrange it from over
there,” and I did; and then I heard from her in
2311
offered
her to send her along, but she didn’t want to come.
Q Where
had you and your wife worked? Where did you and your wife work in the eleven
years you worked over here? I do not
want you to tell the name of each place where you worked, but the class of work
you had done.
A Well,
mostly we worked in private households.
Q You
worked as a butler or chauffeur?
A As
a butler, and she was chambermaid or nurse or cook.
Q In
what part of the country was most of your work done?
A Mostly
here in the East and down in
Q When
did you go to
A In
June or July, 1940.
Q Had
you tried before that time to get to
A I
did, when—around the time when the war broke out in
Q That
is the same episode that Hermann described here?
A Yes.
Q Is
his description of what happened about your being apprehended and your
fingerprints being taken, and so forth, an accurate statement?
A It
was accurate—I mean as far as one can get now after a few years have passed.
Q Do
you want to make any corrections or additions to what Hermann told about your
coming down the coast and being apprehended?
2312
A Perhaps
one thing to say. At that time the
F.B.I. couldn’t have anything against us and didn’t have anything against us,
and told us so, but before they let us go, they asked us if we would be willing
to let us give them their fingerprints.
They said they couldn’t force us to, but they would like to take them,
so all of us gave our fingerprints.
Q Why
did you try to go to
A At
that time lots of Germans lost their jobs.
Mine—I was told I should try to get
home by my last employer.
Besides, my father and my family were living over there, and I wouldn’t
look any too good in a safe country if there were a war over there, so I tried
to get home.
Q You
were working just before the declaration of war for a Mr. Armstrong?
A Mr.
Armstrong.
Q Did
he discharge you when the news came over the radio about the war with
A I wouldn’t say he discharged me right away, but
he let me know right away it would be the right thing to do to get out.
Q You
got out?
A I
did.
Q Did
you succeed in 1939 in your effort to get out?
A Not
then. We had to sell our boat and come
back to
Q Then,
when you did go was in the next year, 1940?
A In
1940.
Q Eddie,
when you were in
2313
A I
never did, no, sir
Q Did
you work for anyone making anything for the Government?
A Selling
anything to the Government? I was
working for a packing house at one time.
They sold meats to the Navy and Army.
Q What
was the name of it?
A Cohen
Brothers
Q Did
you leave that job?
A I
left it that time because their business wasn’t any too secure for me. They sold underweight meat and poor meat at a
higher rating, and I was in the shipping department, and somebody—they may have
been after me and blamed me for it.
Q In
other words, they were shipping an inferior quality, less than what they
charged for?
A Yes. There was a good chance I would get tied up
in this, and I got out.
Q When
you arrived in
A I
came from Italy and went to Berlin, and from there I was sent—I looked for a
job there, and there was an opening for me in the Army in France.
Q Did
you get into the Army?
A Not
in the Army but working for the Army.
Q What
kind of work?
A That
was working on a listening post on the
Q Classed
as a Lieutenant?
2314
A Right.
Q How long did
you work in that capacity?
A It was about
three months.
Q Then what
position did you obtain?
A I came back
then to
Q What does that
mean?
A Well, it is a
word that can’t be translated. It is a
title for a certain office.
Q What were the
duties, Eddie?
A Well, it was managing
stage shows, arranging for artists--well, the field was quite independent, but
it had to do with artists in theaters.
Q That was under
the Propaganda Ministry?
A Right; in a
branch office of that.
Q Explain the
circumstances under which you went to this school near
A Well, it was
some time in March. In the first
statement I said it was April; I think it was March. Kappe came in my office. I had known Kappe’s name, but I had never
seen him before. I knew what he had done
here and what he worked here from watching the newspapers here and talking to
the Germans over there. Kappe appeared
one day in my office and asked me if I would see him. I said, “Sure,” and that day we talked about
two hours. First, he asked me about my
work and my job over there, and he had heard something about my connections
with a man by the name of Boehmer, who was a man in a
high position in the
2315
Propaganda Ministry. I had worked with him at one time. We talked about this case for a while, and that
was –
Q (Interposing) What do you mean by “this case”?
A The Boehmer
case. I have to go back a little
further.
Q Do not give too many details. You do not refer to the plan you later made?
A No.
Perhaps it would be easier to say what it was.
Q Ridiculed it?
A Yes, and we were against it. We warned them – and made a few statements to
them – and tried to get some other fellows in there who knew the States better
than they did, in order to bring that under a better basis.
2316
Q Is there anything further you can tell us
about that?
A Well, Professor Boehmer
and I were called down there from our offices for being too much pro-American
and put in the dog house, as you say.
Q Put in the dog house?
A Boehmer made
the mistake a few days before Russia got into the war to predict, right in the
Bulgarian Embassy about the Russia-German war would come on in a few days, and
he got picked up later, and they tried to tangle me into this thing. That was Kappe had heard that I was tangled
up in this Boehmer affair.
Q What did Kappe say about that?
A Well, he took my side of it. He said, “Well, the diplomats were never any
good for us and they don’t know what is going on. We should try to get into it.”
Q So Kappe took your side of it?
A Kappe took my side of it.
Q What was said by Kappe the first time you
saw him?
A Well, then he asked me if I wanted to go
back to American some day. I said
sure. That was the question everybody
asked if one former German-American sees another one over there – if he wants
to go back some day. It wasn’t unusual
to say “Sure.” So he asked me about my
relations here, what I had done here. He
seemed quite informed about it. He asked
me how my wife was. I was surprised
then, because I didn’t know that he knew anything about my wife, and he went
off that day again, but he came back a few days later or a week later and kept
on talking this way.
2317
One
day he came up and said, “Well, don’t you want to go on a military mission?”
I
said, “Where to?”
“To
I
said, “Yes.” That was sometime in
March. I asked him what sort of
work. He said, “Well, something like the
British are doing – a raid – get on and get off again. I mean a regular military mission.” I said, “Yes.” I couldn’t say “No” then, because I was
sitting in a position if I said “No” he could go and say, “Well, he is a
coward.”
The
Attorney General. I would like to have
that answer struck out and have the witness requested to answer what he did and
not to say what he could have done. I
think the latter part of that answer should be stricken out.
Colonel
Royall. I did not want anything in there
that is improper. Maybe I should ask him
a certain question.
Read
the last part of his answer.
The
Reporter (reading).
“I said, ‘Yes.’ I couldn’t say ‘No’ then, because I was
sitting in a position if I said ‘No’ he could go and say, ‘Well, he is a
coward.’”
Colonel
Royall. We have no objection to that
last part being stricken. We may ask him
some question about it.
The
Attorney General. Will the Commission
strike out that part?
The
President. Yes.
Do
you understand, Mr. Reporter, what is to be stricken out?
2318
The
Reporter. Yes.
The
President. It is agreed by both sides.
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q Eddie, in your future answers will you
turn a little more toward the Commission, so they can hear you?
A All right.
Colonel
Royall. Can you hear all right?
The
Attorney General. Yes.
Colonel
Royall. You are closer than anybody
else.
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q You said “Yes” when he told you about
going on a military mission?
A Yes.
Q Why did you say “Yes”?
A I couldn’t say “No” then, because I was
lucky so far, held a good position, and it would look like I was a coward and
tried to stay in a place where I could earn money while the others are
fighting.
Q And you wanted to do your duty?
A Yes, as a German I would have.
Q Eddie, you said something about “like the
English do.”
A Yes.
That was about the term he used.
Q Did he see you again?
A Well, he came a few times to my office
and a few times in the evening he picked me up to a restaurant.
Q When he said “like the English” what did
you think he referred to? The Commandos?
A Commando raid.
2319
Q What else happened in connection with
your going to the school?
A Well, he came a few times. We talked about other things and always tried
to find out about me. He talked English and
seemed to be quite informed about me.
Then he came out about what it was.
I mean ht had told me I had to go to the school, and I thought of it – I
thought then, “Well, we will see what happens in the school,” but I wasn’t ant
too anxious then, and I talked to my bosses – that was my superiors there in
the office – and they thought it over, too.
He never came out clear how it was and how it would work, and I came
doubtful, and then they said, “Well, you try better to stay here.” I said, “I can’t. If he calls me I can’t get away.” They said, “Well, we will arrange you to go
in the regular army. We will have you
called up by them.”
The
Attorney General. Could you get him to
say who made the arrangement?
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q To whom are you referring?
A My superiors in the office.
Q Your superiors in the office?
A Yes.
Colonel
Royall. Read that last part of the
answer.
The
Reporter (reading).
“They said, ‘Well, we will arrange you
to go in the regular army. We will have
you called up by them.’”
The
Witness. By then I knew just about it
wasn’t so as
2320
he claimed first, that it was a military
mission, Commando raid. He hadn’t said
yes and he hadn’t said no. I wasn’t
quite sure what he meant then any more.
Q Then you went on to school?
A Then I went on to school.
Q Why?
A Well, before I got to school I tried to
get out of it. My office had me called
up by the regular army, but Kappe had that recalled and they sent an order to
my office that they had to get me free and let me go to the school.
Q And you went?
A And I went.
Q What would have been the consequences if
you had not gone, if you know?
A Well, in my position, as an old party
member and able for military service, I couldn’t say no. They would just call me up. There is no way out. If I said no, it is treason.
Q Did you attend school with these other
defendants or certain other persons?
A I did.
Q I believe there was one man there named
Zuber who was in the army; is that right?
A Right.
Q And Neubauer was in the army?
A Neubauer was in the army.
Q Neubauer was a private in the army; is
that right?
A Yes.
Q Why didn’t Zuber continue at school and
participate in the plan?
2321
A Well, that was about in the middle of the
course – around in the middle, I think it was – I became very doubtful of that
whole thing, and looked the men over, and said to Kappe that “Those fellow you
got over there – It is useless, because none of them talks English. Some of them have not been over there for
years, some of them mentally unfit,” and tried to get out of this thing. Kappe said, “Who don’t you think is not
fit?” I mentioned all of the, “One was
in a concentration camp. One doesn’t
talk English. One of them has splinters
on top of his brain, and if they move he will go to a hospital and everybody
will know he was in a war and it will come out.” So he said – Zuber wasn’t over there for five
or six years, and another fellow he couldn’t see a woman without running after
her. So Kappe said, “Well, we will take
that one fellow and Zuber out. The other ones I think are all right.” I said “No.”
Q Did they take Zuber out?
A They took Zuber out – he said, “No. We will let Zuber in till the end of it and
then we will see.”
Q How long had it been since Zuber was over
here?
A If I remember right he left here in 1935
or 1936. I am not quite sure.
Q At the school, Eddie, without giving the
details of the instruction, did you receive any instruction as to whether you
should harm anyone physically over here?
A This question has been raised a few
times, and we ourselves were against doing anything where anybody could get
2322
harmed, and they said over there, “We think,
too, it would be more harmful to us if you do anything where people get hurt,”
and we should let it go – don’t do anything where we hurt anybody.
Q You say that came up several times?
A Yes.
Q Did you receive any instruction of any
kind as to how to harm anyone?
A We never had. Well, we had played around with jujitsu a few
times.
Q What?
A Jujitsu, that Japanese fighting, just
for our own pleasure, but no harm.
Q Did you receive instructions to use it at
all?
A No.
Q Did they tell you anything about bombing
any Jewish stores?
A I haven’t heard that. I have heard that I was asked by them for a
half day in the F.B.I. office.
Q But you had not ever heard of it?
A I had not every heard of it.
Q What did they instruct you to do over
here in
A I won’t say just instructed us, but
advised us to do this and that, and gave us a few plans.
Q Was it sabotage?
A Sabotage, yes.
Q Did they give you any instructions about
obtaining military information?
2323
A No; that was not our job.
Q Were you to obtain any military information?
A No, we should not do anything of that
sort. It was even said they don’t need
that.
The
Attorney General. I did not get that.
The
Witness. They don’t need that.
By
Colonel Royall:
Q You mean they have someone else to do
that?
A That was the impression given to
us. It has been talked about.
Q Were you to forward to
A No, sir.
Q Of any kind?
A No.
Q Was there some discussion of a radio at
one time?
A Yes.
Kappe tried to give us a radio and train somebody for it, but we said,
“No. It is too dangerous. We don’t have any use for it, anyway.”
Q Did they abandon the radio plan?
A So at our advice they dropped it.
Q There has been introduced in evidence a
handkerchief, which I think had an address in
A
Q Was that address given you?
A That was given us by Kappe.
Q For what purpose were you to use that
address?
A Kappe had an address where he always
could reach me when there was a means to get over here, to get mail through,
which is not at present, and if I should ever lose out on that
2324
address, that couldn’t do any good any more,
to reach me I could give him a message through
Q In other words, you left him an address where
you could be reached?
A Yes.
Q An if you changed that, then you could
communicate with him?
A Yes.
Q Were you to communicate anything else to
him in
A No.
Q Were you the only one in your group who
had the
A Besides Dasch, I was the only one.
Q Dasch had one for his group and you had
one?
A Yes.
Q Now, I believe there has also been
introduced in evidence some matches which were to be used for secret
writing. You did have those matches?
A Yes, sir.
Q You are the only one in those groups who
had one?
A Besides Dasch, I was the only one.
Q What were you to do with those matches?
A They were given us to write secret
messages if we had to, if there was any real reason to write to
Q To
A Right.
Q That is for the purpose you have already
stated?
A Yes.
2325
Q For any other purpose?
A No.
Q I believe there was some instruction in
secret ink?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was for the purpose of the members
of the group communicating between themselves?
A Right.
Q Any other purpose?
A No, sir.
Q Now, Eddie you said that you had had some
doubts about this plan. Did you know
that Burger had been in a concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q Did you think that Burger would go
through with this plan?
The
Attorney General. I object. Did you think that someone else would do
something?
Colonel
Royall. Did you think?
The
Attorney General. I object. First he asks the question and says, “Did
Burger think something?” and then he says, “Do you think?”
Colonel
Royall. I did not mean what Burger
thought. I meant did this witness think
that Burger would go through with the plan.
The
Attorney General. I withdraw my
objection to the question in that form.
Colonel
Royall. That is what I meant.
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q Did you think that Burger would go
through with the
2326
plan?
A I had a good idea that he would not.
Q When did you first find out that you were
not going to wear a uniform in your duties?
A When we got to the school, or just shortly
before that.
Q During the time you were at the school or
before you left did anything occur in connection with money or gold
certificates?
A In
Q Without giving too great detail, what
happened about the money?
A At Lorient we found out in our money
belts and in our blank money which we had along there were gold certificates,
fifty dollars, quite a number of them, and Kappe and another man from the
Marine Intelligence came in and saw how we looked that money over, and they
asked why, and we told them that there were gold certificates and there started
to become a row in there. Everybody told
them under those circumstances there is no use to go over there, and Kappe
quieted that down for a while, and then Neubauer and I went after Kappe in a room
alone, and I told him right there and then I did not want to risk this with
that thing and I get out. So he said,
“No, you can’t get out now. You have
enough money, anyway. Throw those
fifty-dollar bills out.”
Q Did you see anybody else at that time
about getting out the of plan or try to see anybody else? Did you try to see the Consul?
2327
A That was a few hours before we had to go
on the boat.
Q Eddie, in deciding to go ahead with this
plan I believe you said you were ordered to go?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any particular reason other
than that for wanting to come to
A Well, the fact that my wife was living
here and she wanted to divorce me, or she wanted me to get a divorce from her,
and that thing wasn’t settled, and I knew she was very sick. She needed an operation and did not have any
money.
Q Did you, while you were in
A I was sure before it would not succeed.
Q Why?
A At first Dasch was not any too
secure. Second, Burger was quite sure he
would not go through, and I knew he only wanted a reason to get out, and the
rest of them – none of them talked English to walk around as an American. I myself don’t talk well enough. So anybody who has been together with them
for three or four weeks knows exactly that that would not do.
Q With that knowledge why didn’t you refuse
to come?
A Couldn’t get out any more then.
Q Did you know that the mission was a
dangerous one?
A I was quite sure, but I hoped to find
another way out.
Q What was your other way out?
A By that time
2328
and then slip into
Q Did you know of any similar mission that
the English had had into
A That is nothing unusual. It happens every day.
Q Both in uniform and in civilian clothes?
A Mostly in civilian clothes. Just those border raids they are in uniform,
but they pick them up every day in
Q Did you know the penalty that was
inflicted upon Englishmen not in uniform who were apprehended in this mission
in
A Yes.
Q What was done with them?
A After the war with
Q The English landed in civilian clothes?
A Yes.
It happens over there every day.
Q Were they put to death?
A No.
Q Did you, on the submarine over, think
further or consider further as to the impossibility of the plan?
A We all mentioned the other group will be
caught,
2329
because we knew they did not fit together.
Q You knew that Burger was in the other
group?
A Not only Burger, but Dasch, Burger, and
the other two fellows are just opposite characters.
Q Did you discuss that with any of your
group on the way over?
A I mentioned a few times to them, “I hope
the other ones don’t trip us off.”
The
Attorney General. What was that last
answer?
The
Witness. “I hope the other ones don’t
trip us off now before we get there.”
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q Did you discuss any other features of it
with the others on the way over – that is, on the submarine?
A I heard
2330
Q Did you have any other discussions of the
possibility of the plan before you landed?
A We listened to the radio quite a lot to
hear what was going on here; and that gas rationing came through. I mentioned there, “Well, that leaves us
out.”
Q what had you planned to do, or what were
your instructions as to the use of an automobile before you learned of the gas
rationing? What had been your
instructions?
A To get ourselves a car to get around.
Q Why did the gas rationing affect you?
A We would have to register for gas, and
that, in our status, was quite impossible.
Q Did you notice anything about Herbert
Haupt’s attitude or feeling?
A No.
He was in a rush to get home to
Q Did you discuss with anybody after you
landed the possibilities of accomplishing this plan, or the possibility of
abandoning it, and when did you discuss it, and with whom?
A I knew Neubauer – I was quite sure
Neubauer would not go through, because I had seen a letter to his wife that
didn’t look – he was not too secure about it, and I knew he had some
doubts. On the way up I took him on with
me and tried to feel him out, because on the boat we would not dare to talk to
each other. If he had said he didn’t
want to go through, and told that to the captain, I would be back home
now. So on the way, in
Q What happened after you got
A First, our own nerves gave out quite a
lot; and
2331
going up on the train we passed factories and
railroad stations and saw how they were watched, to our surprise, much more
than in
Q Did you plan to have a meeting anywhere
after you arrived with this group?
A I wanted to come up on the 6th
of July to
Q Whom were you to meet on the 6th
of July?
A I had told Neubauer to feel out Haupt
and we will meet and see what we will do.
Q Had you planned to do anything about
sabotage before that time?
A No.
I had given it up altogether. I
had hoped Neubauer would convince Haupt that the best thing was to get out.
Q What did you think about Thiel?
A I wasn’t so sure. I have Theil in
Q You were with Thiel?
A I knew I had a lot of influence on
Thiel.
Q You knew Thiel would do just about what
you told him?
A If I had said to Thiel, “Keep your hands
off,” he would have done so.
Q The day before you came did you have any
instructions as to when you would commit sabotage, how long you would wait?
A No definite time was set; from three to
six months to live here and get used to things and settle ourselves.
Q Had you ever, either on the boat or after
your
2332
arrival, made any definite plans for any
definite sabotage?
A No, not at all.
Q Had you inspected to selected any place
to commit it?
A No.
Q Had you seen any plants with a view to
committing sabotage?
A We had passed them and come to the
conclusion that it would not do any good to go near them.
Q Something was said about Hedy Engermann. Did you
know where she lived?
A I had not known until I talked to a
friend of mine. The last I heard of her
she was working in
Q Did you say anything to her about going
on a trip with you?
A The first thing, I had to find a place,
not a hotel, and I asked her if she would fin an apartment for me. She might find a place to live out in the
country. I told her I had to go to
Q Eddie, are there any other facts about
this matter which I have not specifically asked you about, which you desire to
state to the Commission?
A I would have to think a minute.
Q Take your time. I am sure the Commission will give you time
to think.
A The question of the Bund was brought up
by the agents of the F.B.I., but I told them I never had been a
2333
member of the Bund, and they could check the
membership lists which they had.
Q You say you never were a member of the Bund,
and you so told the F.B.I.?
A Yes.
I told them I had been always against the Bund here and used my
influence to get at least the Germans out of it.
Q Is there anything else you think of that
you wish to state to the Commission?
A I cannot think of anything else just
now.
The
President. We will take a recess of ten
minutes before the other side takes up its examination.
(An
informal recess was taken, at the conclusion of which the following occurred:)
The
President. The Commission is open. I take it, Colonel Royall, that you have
finished your examination for the present?
Colonel
Royall. That is correct, sir.
The
President. The prosecution will proceed,
please.
Colonel
Munson. Mr. Cox has now withdrawn from
the court room, but otherwise the same personnel is present. The witness is reminded that he is still
under oath.
CROSS
EXAMINATION
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q You said that an F.B.I. agent slapped
you. Who was that?
A Donegan.
Q And Drayton was there when this happened?
A Yes.
2334
Q Was anyone else there?
A Not in that office.
Q I am asking you about that office. What time did this happen?
A It must have been at least two or three.
Q How many times did he slap you?
A He took hold of my hair, pulled me down
and gave me a punch in the face.
Q You said that he slapped you, and now you
say he punched you? Did he punch you
with his fist?
A He had it about this way (illustrating).
Q About half open. Did he punch you or slap you?
A More of a punch. He didn’t give it all his force.
Q The first time, you said he slapped
you. Which do you mean?
A I say punch.
Q You have now changed it?
Colonel
Royall. That is a matter for the
court. I object to the form of the
question.
Questions
by Attorney General:
Q You now say he punched you?
A Yes.
Q How many times did he punch you?
A Just once.
Q How many times did he pull you by the
hair?
A He pulled me down and punched me up
again.
Q He pulled you down first and then punched
you up?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did he hit you?
2335
A On the left side. He was sitting to the left of me.
Q He was sitting down. He did not get up to punch you?
A No; he was sitting down. I was on the couch and he was on the other
end, and opposite me was Agent Drayton.
Q How close?
A About on this chair here (illustrating).
Q Right next to you?
A Yes.
Q What did you say when he did that? Did you remonstrate with him?
A No; I thought better not to.
Q You did not say anything?
A No, sir.
Q When the doctor came in you said something,
did you not?
A The doctor asked me, “How are they
treating you here?”
Q What did you say?
A That I was treated all right so far, but
that an agent had punched me.
Q Did you say “slap” or “punch” to the
doctor?
A I think I said “punched in the face.”
Q You do not remember whether you said slap
or punch?
A I am quite sure I said punch
Q You said a little while ago that you told
the doctor that he had slapped you.
A There is not much difference in the two
words.
Q Do you know the difference between a slap
and a punch?
A I would know now; yes. In German “slap” is the easiest for us to
say.
2336
Q That is the reason you said “slapped”?
A Yes.
2337
Q You complained to the doctor?
A I complained to the doctor.
Q How often did the doctor come in to see
you? Would he come in three or four
times a day?
A No, he came just about when we got out
of that office.
Q How often each day would the doctor come
in?
A That day, I think, I have seen him only
once. He came to me after that every day
once.
Q The doctor treated you all right?
A Yes: no complaint.
Q What was it that you said? That Donegan had asked you something and
didn’t like your answer to it? Just what
was it that he asked you that he didn’t like your answer to?
A He had complete map of
Q What did you say?
A I said, “I don’t give you any answer any
more than from
Q That was when he slapped you? Punched you; excuse me.
A Yes.
Q You made or signed how many statements?
A There was one taken which I didn’t sign,
and two –
Q (Interposing) You signed two?
A Two.
Q Did you read over the first one, the one
of June 28th?
A 28, right.
Q You signed that and read it over?
2338
A Yes.
Q How many times did you read it over?
A I just glanced over it.
Q Didn’t you read it carefully?
A No.
Q Do you mean you signed the statement
without reading it carefully?
A I signed it. I was at that time quite weak and sick, and I
didn’t look what I signed.
Q You paid very little attention to what
was in it, I suppose?
A Well, some points I read through there,
and the fellows were sitting there, and we talked a little and read on.
Q But you didn’t read it carefully?
A I didn’t read carefully.
Q Did you know what was in it?
A Just about.
Q About?
A I mean I didn’t know at that time for
what purpose that was taken and how it would be used against me.
Q I understand. I should think you would have read it
carefully, then, but you say you did not read it carefully?
A No, I didn’t read it carefully.
Q You didn’t care?
A I was weak and sick then.
Q You knew what was in it?
A Just about.
Q And made corrections in it?
A I made corrections in it.
2339
Q Every page?
A I don’t know.
Q Let me know you the statement. How many corrections did you make on the
first page?
A One.
Q How many on the second?
A Two.
Q And the third?
A Three.
Q The fourth?
A One.
Q One on the fourth?
A Yes.
Where I said three just now, two.
Q Yes.
What about the fifth?
A One.
Q Read the correction you made on the fifth
– the second correction on the fifth.
What did you write in there?
A “This man, a relative of Dasch, would
have no other information about Dasch’s address.”
Q You wrote that in yourself?
A Yes.
And here in this address of my wife which Dasch – which should have been
on the handkerchief of Dasch, which I couldn’t have given him, because I didn’t
know it.
Q You didn’t give it to him?
A No.
Q But you made a correction in the next
sentence?
A I know.
That should have been Leinert. I
somehow missed that.
Q You made one correction in these seven or
eight lines?
2340
A Yes, I know.
Q But not the other one?
A I admit it.
Q Now, the next page. How many corrections are there there?
A Two.
Q Now, the next?
A One.
Q The next page?
A Two.
Q And the last page? What did you write in?
A One.
Q What did you write in on that last page?
A “But in the course of my stay I came to
the conclusion that our orders were made impossible to fulfill, and the means
of transportation were to insecure.”
Q You wrote all that in yourself, and you
initialed every page?
A Yes.
Q What was wrong in that statement?
A Well, a lot of things missing. I mean that was a condensation of talks we
have for two or three days.
Q What was missing?
A For instance, that question if I was a
member of the Bund or not. I was asked
all afternoon – I was asked of my intentions.
Q Does this say you were a member of
the Bund?
A No, it was left out altogether.
Q You mean that you were not a member of
the Bund was left out?
2341
A It doesn’t say anything about that, but
here it comes out that I was a member of the Bund.
Q what was untrue in this statement?
A That I haven’t been a Party member.
Q Anything else?
A That I don’t remember just now.
Q You signed the second statement on June
30. Does that tell the truth?
A Yes, I think it does.
Q Did you read the second statement
carefully?
A I read it more carefully than the other
one, because then it was pointed out to me, because it would probably be used
in the court, and the first one didn’t.
Q Would you just refer to what you mean in
the first? Read the first paragraph of
the first one.
A “I, Edward John Kerling, give the
following voluntary statement to Special Agents John A. Holtzman and D. M.
Brightman, who have identified themselves as Special Agents of the Federal
bureau of Investigation. I have been
made no promises and no duress has been used in order to induce me to make this
statement. I made the same freely and
voluntary knowing that it can be used against me if necessary.” It doesn’t say anything about the court.
Q You mean you knew it could be used
against you but not in court?
A It could have been used in the
newspapers.
Q You thought it was going to be used in
the newspapers?
A Yes.
2342
Q But the second one, you thought, was
going to be used in court and not in the newspapers?
A I wasn’t sure how it was going to be
used.
Q How does the second one start?
A “I, Edward John Kerling, make the
following free and voluntary statement to M. R. Griffin, D. M. Brightman, and
John A. Hotzman, whom I know to be Special Agents of
the Federal Bureau of Investigation, for the purpose of supplementing and
correcting in part, a signed statement, given by me to Special Agents Brightman
and Holtzman on June 28, 1942. This
statement is also made freely and voluntarily without any promises or duress
having been used, and I know that it may be used subsequently in a court of
law.”
Q Why was that phrase put in? Did you suggest that it be put in?
A No.
Q Where did you get the idea that the first
statement was going to be used in the newspapers? Did the F. B. I. Say that it was going to be
used in the newspapers?
A No, but I had no idea how it would be
used against me.
Q It was just a belief on your part?
Colonel
Royall. We object to his interrupting
the witness.
The
Attorney General. I am very sorry; I
shall not interrupt.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q Had you finished your answer?
A No, but the questioning during the first
two days
2343
looked like it was interrogation to find out
the facts of the whole thing at all, and we didn’t think it would be used that
way.
Q What years were you a member of the Nazi
Party?
A From 1928.
Q That was the only year?
A From 1928.
Q Until when?
A I am still.
Q You still are?
A Yes.
Q You are a loyal Nazi, aren’t you?
A Well, that is a question I can’t answer
yes or no.
Q How would you answer it?
A I would say I am a loyal German.
Q I did not ask you that; I asked you
whether you are a loyal Nazi.
A I have to explain that a little further,
then.
Q I wish you would.
A I became a member in 1928. My parents had been thrown out of occupied
territories. They lost about everything
they had. I was in school then, and I
knew that happened through the Communists, and that time the Party was only a small
group of people there, and one of 42 different parties we have at that time, so
it was just the age we became politically interested and got into this.
The
President. (Addressing the witness) Please turn this way.
Colonel
Royall. May I suggest that he talk a
little more
2344
slowly, too?
The
witness. That is habit with me,
too. So, in these year –
The
President. I would not ask him to speak
more slowly; I would ask him to speak naturally.
A
Member. Did he say there were 42
parties?
The
President. Will the reporter please read
what the witness said?
The
Reporter (reading):
f“Answer. ‘I became
a member in 1928. May parents had been
thrown out of occupied territories. They
lost about everything they had. I was in
school the, and I knew that happened through the Communists, and that time the
Party was only a small group of people there, and one of 42 different parties
we had at that time, so it was just the age we became politically interested
and got into this.’”
Colonel
Royall. I do not believe he had finished
his answer. The Attorney General had
asked him if he was a good Nazi.
The
Attorney General. If you will give me a
chance with the witness, I will try to bring that out. I had not interrupted him; he had come to a
pause. I am asking another question.
Colonel
Royall. No; the Commission was having difficulty
hearing; that was the reason why he stopped.
The
Attorney General. With the permission of
the Commission, I shall now ask the witness a question.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission,
the witness
2345
has not answered the question whether he was a
good Nazi. He had stated he was a good
German. The Attorney General had asked
in his question whether the witness was a good Nazi, and the witness said he
would have to explain. He was in the
midst of that explanation when some members of the Commission had difficulty in
hearing him. We think he should be
permitted to complete his answer.
The
President. He will be permitted to
complete his answer.
The
Witness. So, I had been a member over
there only a few months, I think, and left then for over here. Most of my personal friends have been members
of the Party at that time, and I kept on being a member by having them pay my
dues over there. That kept on till
1933. So, I have not been actively –
active in the Party. I have not been
active here. My friends over there – the
old member of that – had good positions then, but still I stayed over here. I could have gone back at that time if I
wanted and used my Party number and my old membership to get a position. I stayed here till 1940. I paid my dues through the German Consulate
and then let it go at that. I had not
known much about
2346
favor of the Gestapo, and as an old member of
the Party, I have a few million newer members against me, and for us it was
quite a fight. But those newer members,
which they run the Gestapo and some other offices over there, are against us
and using now their power to put in other positions. I happened to Burger. They gave him a chance, and they have forever
something on him, and they take us off and put us away. There is an old fight that exists since
1933. Now, I as an old member of that
party could have been sent to the front.
I wondered myself why I didn’t.
Most of them are sent there, and they are the right age to be, so they
have a chance to prove themselves or get killed. But to say would I be loyal to the Party, I
had nothing to do with the Party. I
didn’t have any position in it, and I had no real connection with them. A few of my friends are in Party positions,
but I stayed out of it.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q Have you finished?
A Yes, sir.
Q Having given your explanation, will you
answer the question? Are you a loyal
member of the Nazi Party today, or are you not?
A I feel bitter about it, because they put
me in a position where I couldn’t help myself any more.
Q You have not answered the question yet.
A I say I feel –
The
President. Please read the question.
The
Reporter (reading):
“Question. Having given your explanation,
2347
will you answer the
question? Are you a loyal member of the
Nazi Party today, or are you not?”
The
Witness. I said I feel bitter about it.
The
President. Please answer the question.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission,
the witness has previously said he could not answer yes or no; that he would
have to qualify it.
The
Attorney General. I will give him
another chance.
Colonel
Royall. I know, but you cannot require a
witness to answer yes or no.
The
Attorney General. The law is that the
witness must answer the question and then my make any explanations. When Colonel Royall objected, we permitted
the witness to make all his explanations first without answering the question
in any way; they quite properly the President of the Commission directed the
witness to answer the question. Now
Colonel Royall is objecting.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission, I
do know think that is a fair statement.
I am conficent that when a witness says he
cannot answer yes or no – and it frequently occurs that a witness cannot give a
dogmatic answer either way – I think he has a right – I have never heard of its
being denied – to give a qualified answer.
The
President. Yes. He has done that.
Colonel
Royall. Yes.
The
President. Now there is another
question.
Colonel
Royall. He was asked the same
question. That is the only reason why I
am objecting. This question is the same question
again, and I do want to call your attention to
2348
the fact that the witness, in my opinion, does
not have to say yes or no; he will have to qualify his answer again.
The
Attorney General. My point, Mr.
President, is that the witness has never answered this question. He gave a long history of his membership in
the Party. He has never answered
anything about his loyalty at all.
The
Witness. I can say I have tried to be a
loyal Party member till I got into this thing, but when they used me – used
their power they held over me through that, I doubt my loyalty.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q When was that?
A After I got into this.
Q Sabotage school?
A Yes.
Q That was the time when you were no longer
loyal?
A Yes.
Q You went to
A Right.
Q Did you wear the uniform in
A No.
Q No
uniform?
A No.
Q Belonging to any organization?
A No.
Q No
Nazi uniform?
A No.
Q When you went back this last time, what
was the first job you got right away?
2349
A That was a job in a listening post in
Q How soon after you landed did you get the
job?
A A few days after.
Q You went there on a German passport?
A I had to go to
Q You got it at once?
A Yes.
Q You went over on a German passport?
A Yes.
Q Did you go to the consulate as soon as
you got there? Whom did you see in
A Friends I had there.
Q About this job, whom did you see?
A That was arranged through the foreign
office.
Q It was all arranged when you landed,
wasn’t it?
A No.
Q How soon after you landed?
A A few days.
Q Did you call on the Party office?
A Yes.
Q You asked them to get a job for you?
A Well, that is their duty there – to help
us.
Q Did you ask them to help you get a job?
A Yes.
Q In the Army?
A No, any job which would have been to my
liking.
Q Did you go over to
2350
Government as you were a loyal Nazi?
A No, I tried to get a job to help myself,
just because I had no money, and I had to find some work.
Q What was it you said to your employer
when you left him? What did you tell him
you were going over for?
A That is quite a long time back.
Q If you don’t remember –
A I left at his advice. He told me a few things before the war broke
out. He said, “There is a war brewing;
you had better get out as soon as you can get out.” I told him, “No,” I didn’t think there would
be a war and stayed on a little while, but when it came to be, I was told then
people had – friends had said how they could be Germans now, so I took the
consequences and went out.
Q He told you you
had better go back to
A Yes.
Q What connection had this job with the
Army? Was it Army Intelligence?
A No.
Q You had a commission, didn’t you?
A I wouldn’t say it was a commission. I came out there, and the Army – they have an
arrangement that if a civilian works for them he is classed somehow in order to
pay them their wages and arrange living for him in occupied territory, so I was
classed as a lieutenant.
Q Was it Army propaganda?
A No, it was a listening post of English
broadcasts.
Q It was operated as a branch of the Army,
I think
2351
you said?
A Yes, of the Army and Air Corps.
Q In that connection, at the sabotage
school what did you sign? You signed a
paper, didn’t you?
A Yes.
Q That said you were a soldier of the
Reich, did it not?
A I don’t know whether it said if I am
exactly a soldier or a V man. I haven’t
read that thing any too close. It was
many of those typewritten forms I signed there every day.
Q It said you were going on a secret mission?
A No.
If I am a V man or a soldier, you have to live up to the duties of a
soldier and keep secret – keep what you hear secret.
Q The statement said nothing about a secret
mission?
A No.
Q Did you join the Labor Front in
A I belong to that.
2352
Q When did you join it? When you first got over there or did you
belong to it?
A No.
I think it was in 1936 or 1937.
Q What was the date you first met Kappe?
A I stated in one statement it was
April. I happen to recollect it must have
been March.
Q March of this year?
A March of this year.
Q Had you ever seen him before?
A No, sir.
Q Did you know who he was?
A I knew when he came to me who he
was. I knew his name.
Q You had heard of him before.
A Yes.
Q What had you heard before?
A Well, I knew of him from the Bund
affair, which was German. I knew what
was going on.
Q You mean you knew it from the Bund
newspaper?
A No; it was in the American Newspaper.
Q He was very active in the Bund, wasn’t
he?
A Yes.
Q Where did you meet him?
A He came up to see me in my office.
Q He came to see you personally?
A Yes, sir.
Q You said he seemed to know a good deal
about you?
A Yes.
2353
Q Did he have papers?
A No, but after his first or second visit
I came to think how well he was informed about me.
Q Where did he get the information? From the Gestapo?
A I can’t say for sure where he got it,
but it is my belief he got it through them.
Q What were you making, by the way, in this
job at the listening post? How much were
you getting?
A In
Q Yes.
A I think it was about 450 to 500
marks. I don’t remember for sure now.
Q How much was it said would be paid to
your family when you left the sabotage camp, do you remember?
A This was the money I received while in
Q That is what I asked you. Now I am asking you how much the paper said
your family would get while you were on the sabotage job.
A I have not signed a contract like the
other fellows.
Q Why was that? Because you were in the army?
A No, because at that time I was not in
the army. I was working for the
Propaganda Ministry, and when called up for military service any place in the
Army they keep up paying wages, but there was a provision made that my wife
would get a certain amount of money.
Q How much?
A I think about 300 marks, if my office
does not pay.
Q Now, going back to the conversation with
Kappe, he
2354
knew what you had done in the
A He was quite well informed, yes.
Q Why did he talk about what you had done
in the
A Well, that is the natural thing to
do. I mean, I have not seen him and he
has not seen me.
Q Was Boehmer
there?
A No.
That was along in my office then.
Colonel
Royall. May I ask the witness to talk a
little more straight out this way?
The
Attorney General. Can the Commission
hear the witness?
The
President. Yes.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q Who is Dr. Dieckoff?
A He was the German Ambassador here.
Q He was in German while you were there?
A Yes.
Q It is spelled D-i-c-k-o-f-f;
is that right?
A I wouldn’t say yes. I am not sure.
Q They inform me it is D-i-e-c-k-o-f-f. What
was the first thing Kappe said to you about this plan he had for you?
A May I have that again?
Q What was the first thing Kappe said to
you about this plan he had for you?
A It is impossible to recall that word for
word. It is too long back.
Q You remember generally, don’t you?
2355
A “Do you want to go back to
Q What else?
A I must have said “Yes” to him.
Q He talked about a military mission?
A I don’t believe that was the first
day. That was the second day – second
time.
Q What else did he say?
A He said, “Would you go on a military
mission to the
Q What did you say?
A “Like the British do in
Q What did you say?
A I said “Yes.”
Q And you meant it, didn’t you?
A I don’t know. I don’t think so.
Q You mean when you said “Yes” you did not
mean yes?
A I hoped it was just a way of talking – I
had a way to get out again.
Q Were you lying to Kappe?
A I would have.
Q You were at that time?
A Yes.
I hoped to get out of it again without any consequences.
Q Who was your superior officer in the
listening post? Who was your superior
officer?
A Well, this listening post belonged to Richthofen.
Q Was he in the Army?
A He is a general of the Air Corps.
2356
Q He was your superior officer?
A Well, he was high up.
Q But who was immediately over you?
A I have forgotten the name. It was –
Q Never mind the name. What was his commission? What was his rank?
A Oberlieutenant.
Q What is the equivalent of that here?
A I think it is second lieutenant here.
Q What steps did you take about being
transferred? Did you speak to your oberlieutenant about it?
A At that time that listening post was
given up and at that time I got a job in
Q When you were in the Propaganda Ministry
whom were you working with?
A Schmidtdecker.
Q Was he an oberlieutenant,
too?
A No; he is a private.
Q He is a private?
A He is a civilian.
Q Did you talk with him about Kappe’s plan
for you?
A Yes, after it got to a stage when I
thought I had better get out.
Q What did you say to him?
A Well, I have signed up a so-called
concentration camp declaration. That is
a paper – keep everything secret what you have heard. That is always a plan form made out for any
job where you have any secret papers anything passing through your office.
2357
Q When did you sign that? Before you saw Kappe?
A No.
I signed that in my own office, but for Kappe I had to sign another one,
and that was shortly before I gave up my office there, and when I tried to get
out I talked to my superiors.
Q To whom did you talk?
A Schmidtdecker.
Q What did you ask him to do?
A Well, I told him the story, how it was,
that they wanted to get over here, and I wasn’t quite sure than it was a
military mission or what it was, but I knew I was too deep in there. I told them straightout
I didn’t think much of that undertaking.
Q What did you ask him to do?
A I told him I would like to get
somewhere. I said, “What can we do?”
Q What did he say?
A He said, “I will try and get you a regular
army requisition,” that the Army would call me for another duty, a front line
duty, and that they didn.
Questions
by a Member:
Q Regular Army calling for ward?
A Front line duty, call me up as a
soldier.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q Well, did you get that order?
A Yes, this order came before I had given
up my job.
Q And what did the order command you to do?
A I was to report to the Air Corps again,
but then I had to call Kappe up, that I was called up by the Military
2358
Service.
He said, “Well, we will stop that.”
Q Why did you call Kappe about it?
A He had sent in the meantime a letter to
my office to relieve me of my duties.
Q Kappe stopped it?
A Yes.
I told him that I had been called up already by the Regular Army.
Q And he stopped that?
A He stopped this one thing.
Q Did he tell you he stopped it?
A Yes.
Q Did you say anything more so as not to go
to this school? What other efforts did
you make to get out of it?
A While I was in school I made a few
efforts.
Q But not until you got down to the school?
A Then I couldn’t say more.
Q Well, you did not?
A I told them a few times I don’t think
very much about the whole thing.
Q You remember Scotty there at the school?
A Scotty, yes.
I said to him, “Well, do you think, with a
group of men you have here, you can go to an undertaking like this?”
He said, “Why not?”
I said, “Well, look at Dasch. I don’t think very much of Dasch.”
He said, “Well, you know, Dasch is a relative
of – What is his name?
Q Barth?
2359
A “Reinhold Barth, and we have checked up
on him. He is all right.” I said, “Well, what do you think of Peter
Burger?”
Q Had he checked up on Peter, too?
A Yes.
He had a letter from his superior officers –
Colonel
Royall. Of course, I am in the position
of representing Burger, too. A letter
which he does not have or what somebody else said about Burger of course would
not be competent.
The
Attorney General. May it please the
Commission, Colonel Royall has opened wide, in his examination of all his
witnesses, hearsay. I made no
objection. I think your rulings so far
have been that anything is relevant which shows the state of mind or intent of
these men. This witness is testifying
what Kappe told about Burger. I think it
is proper.
Colonel Royall. I was not objecting to what Kappe told him
about Burger in itself, but I was objecting to what this witness said that
Kappe said that somebody else had written Kappe, and that certainly is not
competent. The letter would have to be
produced, if it were competent at all, and it would not be if it were. You cannot try this case on what somebody
else wrote, I do not think, as against the defendant Burger. The defendant Burger objects to the contents
of that letter or to any conversation.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q Kappe had a letter about Burger, did he?
A Right.
Q What did he tell you about Burger?
A Well, I asked him how he is sure that
Burger is all
2360
right, knowing that he came out of
concentration camp. He said, “Well, we
have checked up on him and he is all right.”
Q That was true of Dasch and Burger. Did you ask him about some of the other boys
he was planning to send down to the school?
A Yes, in the same conversation it came
up.
Q Whom else did he say he was going to send
down.
A That was while we were in the school
already.
Q I am sorry. Did you ask him how he had gotten hold of the
records of some of the other boys and how he knew they were all right? How about Thiel?
A This I could not ask, but I told him –
there was no reasons to ask. I knew he
had checked up on me and Burger and probably had on the others.
Q Did he tell you he checked up on any of
the others? You knew he checked up on
Dasch.
A I did not ask him. I had noreason to ask.
Q I did not ask you that. Did he tell you?
A No.
Q Did you see all these other men at the
school – all these other seven defendants?
A Yes.
Q What was Scotty’s real name?
A I don’t know any more.
Q Had he lived in
A Yes, he had lived here.
Q Do you know any of Scotty’s friends over
in
A No, I do not.
2361
Q Do you know any of Swenson’s friends here
or in
A I knew that he came from north
Q How about Zuber?
A That was one of the others I brought
up. I said, “How can you send a man like
Zuber? He has not been here for five or
six years, does not talk English, and has been held at
Q Do you know any of Zuber’s
friends in
A No.
Q I think part of your special training was
to blow up the
A It was not any special training.
Q Part of your plan was to blow up the
A No, not even that.
Q Mentioned in what connection?
A Blowing up bridges.
Q That was one of the bridges that you
planned to blow up if you could, was it not?
A I didn’t plan to blow it up.
Q I am not asking you about you planning to
blow it up, but the plan of the sabotage group that were being sent to America
had in mind the possible blowing up of the Hell Gate Bridge, had it not?
A It has been brought up not to go on any
bridge and try to blow it up; first, because we do not have any material
2362
and not enough men and it would be impossible.
Q Will you try first to answer the
question? I asked you whether part of
the plan was not to blow up the
A It was not.
Q It was not?
A No.
Q What was said about the
A It has come up in conversation, I think,
about Reinhold Barth, and the other two teachers, Koenig and Schultz – those
two teachers came out and explained to us on a model it is impossible for us,
with our facilities, to blow up a bridge of that size.
Q Were you told not to blow up any bridges
in
A We were told to keep our hands off
bridges.
Q What were you going to do to railroad
tracks? What were you going to do in
work on railroad tracks?
A I had no intention –
Q I did not ask you that.
Colonel
Royall. Well, now, I made objection,
sir. I do not think that counsel should
comment on the witness’ statement. He
said he did not ask him what he was to do with railroad tracks. I think he did ask him that. That is what I understood him to ask
him. I do not think there should be a
comment made by counsel as to what the witness said or did not say. If you ask him another question I will ask
the Commission to require him to answer if he does not answer, but I do not
think it is proper for counsel to comment on his understanding.
The
President. This is cross-examination by
counsel.
2363
Colonel
Royall. Yes, sir.
The
President. As I remember, on your
examination you did bring out, by questions, that they were confining
themselves to sabotage.
Colonel
Royall. That is right, sir.
The
President. So that it seems to me it is
permissible to find out what class of sabotage they were coming over here to
do.
Colonel
Royall. Apparently I did not make myself
clear to the Commission. I am not
objecting to the questions at all at this stage. I am merely objecting to the comment of the
Attorney General after the witness is asked a question, when he says, “I did
not ask you that.” That is a comment on
what the witness is doing. I do not
think you can comment on a witness during his examination. You can ask him questions. I merely am objecting to a comment made by
the Attorney General with reference to the witness’ answers. If he will confine himself –
The
President. Does the Attorney General
care to make any comment?
The
Attorney General. The only way of
getting an answer out of this witness is by his not answering the question
directly. I went over the whole plan to
sabotage bridges. He said there were no
plans. Now I am asking about the plans
with respect to railroad tracks. He
said, “I did not intend,” and I said, “That was not my question.” I think it is a perfectly appropriate thing
to do.
Colonel
Royall. Supposed he reads the question
that the Attorney General asked him and see if that was not the question.
The
President. I do not think we need to do
that. My
2364
remembrance is that of the Attorney
General’s. The question may be put in
the form that seems best to bring out the fact.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q What were your instructions or plans –
that is, of your group or either of the groups – with respect to railroad
tracks and railroad trains?
A They instructed us or advised us to go
after railroads, blowing up freight train tracks, putting abrasives into the
hot boxes, and slow down freight delivery.
Plans I did not have made.
Q You were instructed to do that without
hurting anyone?
A Yes.
Q Just how could you do that without
hurting anyone?
A If I put abrasives into railroad boxes
it is perhaps the easiest thing to do.
It would not hurt anybody.
Q You were instructed to put bombs inside
of some of the lockers of stations, weren’t you?
A I have not.
Q When I say “you,” were any of your group
instructed?
A I don’t know. This is the first time I heard it here.
Q You never heard of it before.
A No.
Q You never heard of it at the camp?
A No.
2365
Q I would like to know a little bit more
about this handkerchief with the secret writing on it. Who put the secret writing on the
handkerchief?
A I did, myself, with the help of a
chemist who mixed this fluid; and the address given was typewritten by Kappe.
Q Did you make any suggestions about the
names and addresses?
A No.
I had given Kappe the name of a
friend of mine, which he asked before, but I didn’t know for sure what
purpose. That is the only name I had
given him, as far as I know.
Q Given to whom?
A Kappe.
Q For what purpose?
A He asked me, “Have you any friends over
there?” I told him I had only one friend
in the
Q Why was the name written on the
handkerchief?
A That was not written on my handkerchief.
Q What was the purpose of writing any names
on the handkerchief?
A I had the address of Dasch so that if I
lost Dasch I would catch up with him again through that address.
Q What about the other names on the
handkerchief?
A That was a name that has been mentioned,
if we needed any help we could try and get in touch with him, but we were
warned not to.
Q Who?
A Dasch and I. He had not seen that man for about half a
year.
Q Why was that name written on the
handkerchief?
2366
A It was an agent they had over here.
Q What about the names and addresses in
A If we wanted to get in touch with Kappe.
Q Why would you want to get in touch with
Kappe?
A Because the addresses I had given to
Kappe would not be good any more for me and I would let him know where I was.
Q Did Kappe or anyone tell you you must write him about your address?
A He said he had no need to hear from us
if we didn’t have any reason to write to him.
Q He did not tell you not to write to him,
did he?
A No.
He said, “We don’t know, anyway, how long the address is good. We don’t know what will happen in
Q What was the point of having an address
at all? Just to give him your change of
address? Is that the only point of it?
A At first he advised us to get somebody
on the radio, but we were against. We
said we had no reason. He said, “We will
see.” That kept on until after the
school was over, and before I went on vacation I was told to come back a day
earlier, and then he gave us that address.
He said, “Maybe you will want to communicate with us.” That had been talked, the first part of it,
and then on our advice it was dropped.
Q And the handkerchief plan was substituted
for the radio plan?
A Not then.
Q Later?
A That came on after I came back from my
vacation.
2367
I was told to come back a day earlier, and
then he told us, “Here is an address in
Q First, the radio was planned as a means
of communication, and that was dropped?
A It was not our plan, it was his plan.
Q Yes; I understand. And then the handkerchief plan was
substituted for the radio plan?
A I wouldn’t say “substituted.”
Q It was decided on instead of the radio
plan; is that right?
A I wouldn’t say “instead” or
“substituted.” It was just given us
then.
Q Did any German soldiers go down with you
on the train to
A That was a mixed train.
Q Did any soldiers go with you?
A With us?
We had our own compartment.
Q Did any soldiers go with you? Can you not say yes or no?
A It was a mixed train. There were soldiers and civilians on it.
Q Did soldiers go with you in your
compartment?
A Not in our compartment; no.
Q You gave the money satchel to Haupt to
hold, did you not?
A Yes.
Q When was it you gave it to him?
A I think it was down in
Q How long did he keep it?
A I have never seen it again.
2368
Q Why did you give it to him?
A I had too much money on me, anyway, and
I thought I had better give it to Haupt.
I was not too sure of him, anyway, and I would rather have him with
money than without money.
Q You mean, you were afraid he might give
you away?
A I had my doubts about him.
Q Doubts as to what?
A If he had not any money he would try to
give me up and try to get some money.
Q And you naturally did not want him to
give you up?
A No, not then.
Q Did you want him to give you up later?
A I had not made up my mind what we were
going to do.
Q When was it that you had not made up your
mind?
A Down in
Q When you gave him the money you had not
made up your mind what to do?
A No.
Q By the way: you spoke on your direct
examination about burying these boxes in
A We buried them quickly and got away from
there.
Q I thought from what you testified you
wanted to have us understand that you buried them with great care and covered
them up so nobody would find them. Was I
wrong?
A We tried to do our best.
Q It was a quick job; but you did your
best; is that right?
2369
A Yes.
Q What kind of uniforms did you have on
when you left the submarine?
A I had a cap on and a bathing trunk and a
coat.
Q What kind of cap?
A A military cap.
Q Like one of these that has been
introduced to the Commission?
A Yes.
Q What did you do with that cap? What happened to it?
A I thought I had thrown mine back in the
boat, but I later found it was buried with the others.
Q What did you wear on the submarine?
A Mostly bathing trunks.
Q What did you wear when you were not
wearing bathing trunks?
A A pair of pants.
Q A fatigue uniform?
A I think I had a pair of old pants on.
Q Did you wear clothes like the ones
brought into court here?
A Not on the submarine. I had old pants on.
Q Did you ever wear clothes like that?
A I wore them going to the boat in
Q And the other boys wore the same kind of
clothes?
A Yes.
Q Where did you get them?
A In
2370
Q From whom? – the army?
A The army or mraine.
Q How did you register in
A I have not registered there, sir.
Q You did not register in
A Oh, yes.
Q What hotel?
A The Commodore Hotel.
Q How did you register?
A By the name of Kelly
Q Edward Kelly?
A Yes.
Q That was the name that you and Kappe had
planned that you were to use in
A That was advised by Dasch.
Q Kappe had talked about it, had he not?
A Yes, sir.
Q That was part of the plan, that you were
to use the name Edward Kelly?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you use it in any other way while you
were over here those few days?
A Down in
Q What hotel?
A The Seminole Hotel in
Q Who was with you in the Commodore when
you registered, if anyone?
A Neubauer.
Q How did he register?
A He didn’t register at all.
2371
Q Did you register for him?
A No; I just registered in my name.
Q And he got a room without any
registration?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who was with you when you registered in
A Just Neubauer and I.
Q Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant to say, who was with you in
A Thiel.
Q Did he register?
A Yes, sir.
Q In what name?
A I believe Thomas.
Q You know that to be true, do you not?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was that the name he had been given in
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you meet Tony Cramer on June 23?
A Yes.
Q Who is Tony Cramer?
A A friend of Thiel.
Q Were you with Thiel when you met Cramer?
A They had been in that little place where
I met them. When I got there they had
been there, sitting there.
Q Did you or Thiel tell him about what
brought you over here?
A No, sir; I didn’t talk to him very long.
Q Did he ask you what brought you over?
2372
A No, sir.
Q Did he ask Thiel why he had come over or
how he had come over, when you were there?
A Not that I know of.
Q You saw Hedy Engermann
when you came over?
A Yes.
Q When did you first see her?
A Monday
Q I understood you to say that part of your
plan was to come back to
A No.
That was misunderstood.
Q Pardon me.
A I wished to come here to see my wife and
help her as much as I could.
Q Were you going to get a divorce?
A No.
I was trying to get my wife back again.
Q Back here? Oh.
You mean, to live with you again?
A Yes.
Q Your wife was hard up, was she?
A Yes.
She had an operation and was sick.
Q How much money did you leave with your
wife when you went back to
A I don’t know how much she had at that
time; not very much.
Q Who was Krepper?
A That is a name which had been given to
me by Kappe.
Q For what purpose?
A Probably if we needed any help we could
get in touch with him.
2373
Q What was Krepper’s
first name?
A I don’t know. It was probably on the handkerchief, but I
have forgotten it.
Q Did you ever see him?
A No, sir.
Q Who was Lamm?
A A friend of mine. We had worked together in Short Hills.
Q You went to see him when you got here?
A I tried to see him.
Q Did you see him?
A No, sir.
Q You said you thought Burger was not going
through with the plan?
A It was quite obvious.
Q What made it obvious?
A I knew he had been at a concentration
camp, and the way he acted he was not too sure.
Q How did he act.
A He didn’t care any too much over there
about the whole thing, and it looked like he just thought, “Let us get over
there and see what happens.”
Q Would it be fair to say that from the
very beginning of the concentration camp you were certain that Burger would not
go through with it?
A I wouldn’t say, certain, but I had that
feeling.
Q Did you ever say anything to him about
it?
A No.
I had one talk with him in
Q What happened at that time? Did he say he was not
2374
going through with it?
A He didn’t say anything; he just
complained to me about how careless the others were.
Q Were you alone with him during that talk?
A That was on the street.
Q Were you alone together?
A Yes, sir. It was just a few passing remarks.
Q None of the others were there, were they?
A They were standing around near there.
Q You spoke of Dasch being doubtful. When did you first think Dasch was doubtful?
A Anyone who knows Dasch would have his
doubts.
Q I do not know what you mean by that. You said you were doubtful whether Dasch
would go through with the plan. What
made you think he would not?
A The way he acted over there.
Q How did he act?
A Disinterested; just his habit of
talking, “Let us get over there and let us see.
What is the use of talking now about it?”
Q Did Kappe notice that he was
disinterested?
A I talked with him one time about it and
he said, “Oh, that is all right.”
Q You were a little nervous about if and
talked to Kappe about it; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And you say Kappe said he was all right?
A Yes.
Q Did you say to Kappe that if you had to
come back
2375
you might be able to come back through
A I didn’t tell Kappe anything about that.
Q Who did you tell about it?
A Over there I didn’t talk to any of them.
Q You said nothing about coming back
through
A No.
We could not. It was impossible.
Q Well, you did not?
A No.
I mentioned it on the submarine.
Q To whom?
A To Neubauer.
Q Yes; I think you said that before. What was this gas rationing that you heard
about on the radio? Did you hear it on
the radio yourself, or did someone tell you?
A No.
We listened to the radio program down there.
Q What did you hear about gas rationing?
A That there was a gas shortage, and you
had to register for gas.
Q Did it say where the shortage would be
and who were going to be registered?
A On the East coast, and then it was
mentioned that it was to be all over the country.
Q When you landed did you ask anybody about
the gas rationing?
A No; I did not.
Q You did not ask anybody about it?
A No, sir.
Q Were you told to enlist persons who were
sympathetic to the German cause?
2376
A It was told us that we could do it if we
thought it advisable.
Q Were any names given to you of persons
who might be sympathetic?
A No.
It had been mentioned over there that we should try to get Germans if we
can, or Americans; but we would not risk it.
Q Who mentioned that?
A Kappe.
Q When you were arrested were you looking
for a hideout to which the explosives could be brought?
A I was waiting for my wife.
Q At any time before you were arrested had
you been looking for a hideout where explosives could be brought?
A I was not looking for a hideout where
explosives could be brought, but I had been looking for a place where I could
stay without having to live in a hotel.
I thought of that.
Q Of what?
A Trying to find a place where I could
live.
Q What were you going to do with the
explosives?
A When we were arrested I had given it up,
about digging them up at all.
Q When did you give it up?
A I had myself made no plans about giving
it up.
Q You said you had given it up.
A I never intended to get them out of
Q You had no plans about it?
A I had no plans to go through with the
whole thing.
2377
Q You were just going to leave the boxes in
A I was not quite sure of that. I was worried because I was not sure how they
were buried; and after I found the notice in that newspaper that the F.B.I. was
looking for Germans coming off a submarine in
Q That is what finally decided you?
A No.
I had myself made up my mind not to go down there any more. I thought I might go down to see they were
buried good so we could leave them there.
I was not quite sure how they were.
Q You thought you might go down there?
A I had thought about it but had not made
any plans. I was worried whether those
boxes were buried good enough to leave them there.
Q Had you planned to buy a car to drive
down?
A No.
Q Had you talked about any girl going down
to get them?
A No.
I mentioned to Hedy Engermann if she would go
on a trip with me.
Q Why did you say that, when you say you
had not talked to any girl about going down there to
A I thought that was the girl you meant.
Q What did you way to Hedy about the stuff
that was buried?
A I didn’t say anything about it?
Q Did you tell her about what you had come
over here for?
2378
A I don’t hink
so. I told her at one time, “Don’t ask
me any questions and I will tell you no lies.”
Q Did she ask you?
A She questioned me a few times.
Q But you would not answer her at all?
A Not direct; no.
Q Did you plan to marry her after you had
divorced your wife?
A No.
I was not going to divorce my wife.
My wife wanted me to marry Hedy Engermann.
Q What address did you give on your
registration card in
A I have forgotten. It was some place out in
Q You do not remember?
A I do not remember.
The
Attorney General. I will ask the
reporter to mark these two photographs.
(A photograph
of Kelly’s registration
at the
Commodore Hotel in
was marked P-261 for
identification.)
(Photograph
of registration card of Kelly
at Hotel
Seminole,
was marked P-262 for
identification.)
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q I show you P-261 which seems to be a
photographic copy of a hotel registry in
A Yes.
Q Will you read it?
2379
A (
“Edward
J. Kelly, Waltan Company.” It might be “W-a-l-t” or “W-a-l-h.”
Q What was it? You wrote it.
A It could be Walham
Company,
Q Is there such a company?
A Not that I know of.
Q Who suggested that you give this address?
A Well, when we got into
Q You just made this up?
A Yes.
Q Why did you register with a false
address?
A My name is known here. I have been checked up by the F.B.I. before,
and they had my fingerprints.
Q What is the date of this? You can probably remember the date.
A June 21.
Q 1942?
A Yes, sir.
Q I show you P-262. It seems to be a photograph of your
registration at the Hotel Seminole. Can
you read it?
A (
“Edward
J. Kelly,
Q Is that a false address or a real one?
A False.
2380
Q Where did you get that address?
A That had been put on my registration
card, or something similar to that, my registration which you have.
Q The registration card that Kappe gave
you?
A That Dasch gave me.
Q And you used the address on the
registration card, or something like it, to register?
A Yes.
Q You meant to follow the registration
address as closely as you could?
A I had forgotten the number which was on
there. I just marked it as I remembered
it.
The
Attorney General. I will offer these two
exhibits in evidence.
Colonel
Royall. No objection.
(Photograph
of registration at the Commodore
Hotel,
identification, was
received in evidence.)
(Photograph
of registration card at Hotel Seminole
,
identification, was
received in evidence.)
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q When you landed in
A No.
I had given it up by then.
Q I want to examine you with respect to
your statement of June 28. Is this
statement correct?
A No; it is not.
Q What is incorrect in this statement?
2381
A There are points left out and points
phrased not exactly the way I told them.
Q Let us see if it is phrased just the way
you told them. I will read from page 9
of your statement—or perhaps you had better read it yourself. Some of it is in your writing. Start reading at the top and read it
distinctly.
A (Reading) “At the time of my landing I
intended to follow my instructions and to sabotage power lines and other
facilities that might be suitable, but in the course of my stay I came to the
conclusion that our orders were made impossible to fulfill as the means of
transportations are too insecure.”
Q Some of that is in your handwriting, is
it not?
A Yes.
Q What part of it is in your writing? Read
the part that is in your writing.
A (
Q Is that statement correct?
A No, it is not; not on that point.
Q When you came to
A Yes.
Q Did the German consul offer to pay you
your passage to
A If I had no money I could have gotten
money; but I have never—
Q You have not answered the question.
A That question did not come up, because I
had enough
2382
money.
Q You mean, he
did not make that offer?
A He asked me
if I had enough money.
2383
Q This is the statement of June 28. I am reading from the next to last paragraph:
“ * *
* I might state that prior to my last trip to
Was
that correct?
A Well, I was asked there if I had enough
money, and I told them, “Yes.”
Q Is this statement correct or incorrect?
A Well it says about the same thing, but it
is not phrased the way I had it phased there.
Q I
was not clear what you said about this: I asked you whether when you went to
A No, I never wore any.
Q I am handing you your statement of June
30 and refer you to the third paragraph.
I see that there are several corrections in your own handwriting--two of
them. Will you read that paragraph,
please?
A “In June of 1928 I became a member of
the N.S.D.A.P. or the Nazi Party. As a
party member I wore a uniform from 28029 when I was in
2384
In 1932 my wife joined the
Nazi Party, and both she and I are at the present time, still members of the
Party. I have never held any office or
rank in the Nazi Party.”
Q Maybe I
misunderstood you, but I thought you said you had not worn the uniform of the
Nazi Party on those trips to
A I never had
one.
Q Is this
statement right?
A That
statement is right. As a member, I wore
the uniform from 1928 to 1929. That was
before I left
Q Over here you
wore the uniform?
A No, in
Q You wore the
uniform in
A At the time I
became a member, in the first few months.
Q Did Haupt
furnish you with a number or names to be used in case of trouble or to use for
the group?
A Any name?
Q The name of
any person.
A I had been given
an address of Froehling in
Q Haupt gave it
to you?
A No, I think
it was Kappe.
Q You think it
was Kappe?
A Yes.
Q You are sure
Haupt did not?
A At that time
I had thought it was Haupt, but I don’t think it was. I remember I was in--was sitting outside in a
little house, and there Kappe gave me that number.
Q When you told
the F. B. I. About it, you thought it
2385
Haupt; but now, having
thought it over, you think it was Kappe?
A Yes. It was the natural thing to think, because—
Q (Interposing)
What was the natural thing to think?
A That the
address came from him.
Q Why was it
natural to think that the address came from him?
A Because he
knew Froehling was a relative of Haupt.
Q Kappe knew all
about Haupt?
A Yes, he knew
about Haupt.
Q You said you
tried to find Krepper but didn’t find him?
A No. I passed
through
Q At that time
your main interest was in finding a hideout, was it not?
A No, not then,
I wouldn’t say.
Q I shall have
to read from your statement again. It is
the third paragraph on the last page of the statement signed
“On Tuesday afternoon,
2386
might
be in a position to furnish such help.”
That
is correct so far?
A So far that is correct, yes.
Q At that time you were primarily
interested in locating a hide-out; is that correct?
A That is about right.
Q I thought you stated you were not
interested in a hide-out at that time.
A But I didn’t know Krapper. I wanted to find an apartment. This is another instance of where the
statement was taken after a long time and a sentence was put in there. If you take on sentence afar another—
Q (Interposing) Well, you tell us about
it. I do not want to confuse you about
it. Tell us what actually happened.
A I have been going through
But
at that time when I was apprehended, I had to think about a place where I could
live, but it was all independent of that Krapper,
because I couldn’t--I didn’t try to look up Krapper. He was--Kappe told
me he had not heard from him for a long time or not at all since he returned
here. And another thing, I had seen in
the papers that they had arrested a preacher down in
2387
the reason I didn’t want to
go near him.
Q What date did
you see Hedy Engeman?
A Monday
afternoon for a half hour or so.
Q Where did you
see her?
A
Q At some
restaurant?
A
Q At some
restaurant?
A No, no; in
the park.
Q In her
apartment?
A No; in
Q Did you say to
here that you came over to the United Stets in a submarine, landing off the
coast of
A I tried at
first to make here believe I came from
Q Did you say
that to her or not?
A Not directly,
but I wouldn’t have said, “Yes, I came in the submarine,” but when she said,
“You came in the submarine,” I didn’t say yes or no; I left her to make up her
own mind.
Q did you say to
here that Hermann Neubauer was in the
A I never
mentioned it.
Q Did you say to
here that you had to pump while you were on the submarine so hard, something
like the pumping on the lekala?
A That was the
next day. I met her next day again.
Q Oh, it was the
next day you told her you came over
2388
on the submarine?
A Well, I
didn’t tell here then that I came from the submarine, but is was the only way
to get over here. She knew that there
was no other way out.
Q She just
guessed that?
A Yes.
Q You did not tell
here you had come over on a submarine, but you did tell here what you had done
on the submarine?
A I didn’t deny
it.
Q But you did
not tell her you had come over on the submarine.
A I didn’t tell
her when she asked me--not the first day.
Q Did you say
anything to here about having to go to
A I asked her
did she want to come with me to
Q Did you say
anything to her about
A I asked here
how would she like to go to
Question by a Member:
Q You said
because you had go go to
A No; we had
been down there together. I met Hedy Engeman in
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Did you know a
girl named Miriam Adams?
A Yes.
Q When did you
know her?
A I met that
girl in 1936.
2389
Q When?
A 1936.
Q Did you write
to her sometimes?
A Yes.
Q Was she a girl
friend of yours?
A She was a
friend of mine.
The Attorney General.
I will ask to have this letter and envelope marked for identification.
(Letter of
E. Kerling to “Dear Miriam” was marked
as
Exhibit P-263 for identification.)
(Envelope was marked as Exhibit
P-263-A
for identification.)
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q I show you
Exhibits P-263 and P-263-A for identification.
Is that the letter at you wrote her?
If it is in your writing, I should think you could tell without reading
the whole letter.
A That is my
writing?
Q Did you write
that to her?
A Yes.
Q Will you read
it to the Commission?
Colonel Royall. What
was the date of it? Does that appear?
The Attorney General.
The witness (reading):
EXHIBIT
263
“Dear Miriam.
“Perhaps you are surprised.”
The Attorney General.
You had better read it so that we can understand it.
2390
The President. Read
it so that we can hear it.
The Witness (reading):
“Yet,
in spite of all, I haven’t forgotten you.
Here is Christmas coming along and my thoughts wander back through years
of excitement, troubles and also happiness.”
The
Attorney General. A little more slowly.
The
Witness (reading):
“And
you are to me an outstanding point in my life amongst you Americans. I haven’t
changed yet, my feelings are the same, even if you think that I have given you
the ‘run around’ as you termed it at out last meeting. Miriam, perhaps it was better the way it all
happened. I wonder if you would be happy
under the present situation – neither would I be content, should I have been
forced to stay in the States. It would
in any case be difficult, but I hope that the time has mellowed your bitterness
and that you remember our happier hours together and that you have forgotten
the disappointments. I have not given up
hope to hear from you some day. Miriam,
this Christmas I hope you are very happy.
I know this letter will reach you only weeks form now, if it ever
does. But be assured that in these days
I have also thought of you. For the
coming year I wish you good luck and may you be spared the worries of wartime. I know you have a brother in the fleet. And if your country should get in on this war
I know you have good reasons to fear for his safety. So let us hope it does not happen. The future does not look any too bright for
you. Personally
2391
I would
not be surprised if Mr. Roosevelt should imitate Mr. Wilson. In that case, Miriam, we should have to be
enemies! It looks crazy – but Mr. R.
seems to think that we are out to make out of the good old
2392
remember
their experiences of the last war. To me
here it is of very little concern if the
2393
Jeneva. I also wish her good luck. Should your family object to my writing, then
please pay them my respects. I can
understand their standpoint, but I hope for their understanding. Miriam, all the good in the world to
you. Be happy – and may I say
“Auf Wiederscheim”
“Love and best regards as ever
“Ed.”
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Where was that letter from? It is on the letter-head on top, I
think.
A
Q
A No, it was written in
Q It has the return address of
A Ye,
Q That was
A I tried to be at that time.
The
Attorney General. May it please the
Commission, the ordinary hour of adjournment has come, and I have another
rather long letter, so if you would care to recess now, it would b satisfactory
to us.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission,
may I make a statement before recess?
The
President. Yes.
Colonel
Royall. I should like this record to be
as
2394
correct as possible. The last time I made an objection, I feel
that the Commission did not understand it.
I was not objecting to the questioning by the Attorney General but merely
to what I considered comments on the part of the witness.
There have been no comments since them.
I do not want the Commission to think that I was objecting to the course
of the examination, because that was not my objection.
The
President. That will be made a matter of
record.
We
shall recess until one-thirty.
(At
2395
AFTER
RECESS
The proceedings were resumed at
The President. The
session is open. Proceed.
Colonel Nunsom. The personnel of the Commission, the eight
defendants, and the reporter are present, as before the recess. The prosecution personnel is present except
Mr. Cox, Mr. Rowe, Colonel Treusch, and Major Thurman. The defense staff is present except Captain Bruton.
The witness is reminded he is still under oath.
EDWARD JOHN KERLING
was recalled as a witness
and, having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION—RESUMED
The Attorney General.
Mark that.
(Letter dated November 25,
1941, from Kerling was marked
P-264.
The envelope contain-
ing said letter was
marked
P-264-A.)
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q I show you
Prosecution Exhibit 264 and 264-A, a letter and an envelope. Do you recognize them (handing documents to
the witness)?
A Yes, sir.
Q That is one of
your letters to this girl?
A Yes, sir.
(At this point Mr. Cox entered the courtroom.)
Colonel Royall. May it
please the Commission, as was so often stated by the Attorney General during
the presentation of the prosecution ‘s ases, it is
hardly appropriate to ask
2396
a defense witness to read the
prosecution’s evidence, any more that it would be for the prosecution to read
the defense evidence. However, if you
will just give me a moment to glance over this, I think I won’t make any
objection to this. I want just a moment
to look at it.
(At this point Major Thurman entered the courtroom.)
Colonel Royall. There
is no objection to the witness himself reading this.
The Attorney General:
I think perhaps for the Commission’s understanding we had Bette have
somebody else read it, so that they can hear it better.
Colonel Royall. Any
way you want to proceed.
Mr. Cox (reading):
EXHIBIT
264
“Dear Miriam:
It may take some time”—
Colonel Royall. May
I suggest that the witness be reading along with him?
The Attorney General.
Surely.
Mr. Cox (reading):
“It
may take some time for this letter to reach you—in anticipation of this I don’t
want to hesitate to send you Christmas greetings at this early date. You may be surprised to receive such a steady
stream of mail from me – that is if the greater part of my letters have reached
you, but I told you once that I never forget – and these letters may prove the
statement. If you’d know how little rest
I get and what amount of time I have for my personal correspondence then you’d
realize that after all I value my memories of bygone days very highly. No, Miriam, I haven’t forgotten and I haven’t
changed much.
2397
I
have made some good friends in
2398
would
have to put up with. I know
There
is one word left out.
The
Witness. “which
Mr.
Cox. “which
The
Witness. Yes.
Mr.
Cox. “Our young soldiers who have fallen
on the
2399
fields in
“Please give my regards to your
family. I hope they have forgiven me and
take this letter as what it is meant – a Christmas wish to a good friend and a
charming girl.
“Yours always
“Ed.
P.S. Please,
Miriam, give my regards to Jeneva and wish her for me
a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.”
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q What is the date of that letter?
A November 25.
Q What year?
A 1941.
Colonel
Royall. Are there some corrections in
there?
The
Attorney General. Well, wait a
minute. I will ask him about the
corrections.
2400
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Where was it written from?
A From
Q What is the return address on the
envelope, if there is one?
A Care of Day,
Q Who was Day?
A Mrs. Day is an American woman living
over there.
Q Why is that return in care of her?
A I lived here.
Q You lived there?
A Yes.
Q She was your landlady?
A Yes.
Q Was she working for the Government?
A Mrs. Day is
the mother of an American living here and supported by him.
Q Is she working for the Government?
A She has not been working. She is 82 years of age.
Q What’s her son’s name?
A Mr. Day.
His father is in some way connected with an insurance
company.
Q What
insurance company?
A Some
big insurance company.
Q What
city?
A I
think it is
Q You
do not know his first name?
A No. The son is living in
2401
I lived with that lady for about six months. When war broke out she had to register, and I
helped her out by vouching for her and supporting her with money, because the
money which had been sent to her through her son did not get through to them,
and I vouched for her.
Q Do you want to
make any corrections in the way the letter was read?
A I don’t know
if that was correct:
“I
know what you can put against us, but please believe me, Miriam, I feel sorry
for the American soldiers, for your brother. If he should have to fight against
the German Army.
I think some of that was not right.
The Attorney General.
Mark that.
(Letter
from Kerling, dated
P-265,
and the envelope
containing
said letter was
marked
P-265-A.)
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q I show you
P-265 and P-265A. Is this another letter
that you wrote to Miriam (handing documents to the witness)?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you
write it?
A
Q Where from?
2402
A I just don’t
remember where that was written from.
Q You can look
at the envelope, if that will refresh your recollection.
A From
Q From
A Right.
Q
A Washington,
D.C.
Q What were you
doing in
A That was
about June 4. That was on my return from
Q Return from
A From
Q What trip was
that?
A After we had
sold our boat down there and we came up here.
Q Will you read
that?
EXHIBIT
265
A “Perhaps you
are surprised, but I haven’t forgotten that you are about to celebrate another
birthday. May I hope that you forgive me
for writing you a short note? But I can’t
let this day pass without sending you any greetings and my heartiest
congratulations.”
There is something rubbed out here.
Q Well, read
what was rubbed out or not. It does not
make any difference.
A “After all,
Miriam, you haven’t been to me just another girl. If so I would not write to you. The years haven’t changed me, not much in any
case.”
2403
Q If it is
rubbed out do not read it.
A “If, as I
believe will happen,
“I know their worries – their only son out of the country,
up to all kind of adventures, and no word from him. I had the good news in May I became
Uncle. My sister has a little boy – is
very happy otherwise. But they live in
the German danger zone. A day after
birth the town was bombed by plane. Her
child was brought to the camp celler while she had to
stay in bed during the bombing. You
know, Miriam, to get this sort of news is not so easy to take. This makes war more personal. I am no blind fell and know that in
“Well, Miriam, the last 8 months haven’t been any too
peaceful for me. I could not get home
yet, in spite of every
2404
effort.
“During all this time we are handled like common
criminals. It’s not pleasure, but we get
used to it. I haven’t done a stroke of
work all this time just using all my time to find a way out, in order to get
home to help my country.
“So you see, at present, I am not as carefree as
usual. Miriam, I often wonder how you
are. Your ears must have been ringing a
lot, if the old saying is true. You know
I would give a lot to know what you are doing, to know that you are happy.
“I don’t want to bring back unpleasant memories, Miriam,
but there has been a fine wish we both have been very happy. I haven’t been it since. But one can’t bring back bygone years not
make good old mistakes. But we can learn
from them. I have taken my lesson, and
have lived honestly, perhaps not a model life, but decent. I haven’t been any too happy, but I haven’t
made any more people unhappy.
“I hope your parents don’t mind this letter.
“Please give my regards to Jeneva.
“So, Miriam, all the happiness to you on your birthday and
these coming years.”
Q Is that all?
A Yes, sir.
2405
Q Did you know
Dr. Draeger?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you
know him?
A Since 1936 or
1937.
Q You knew him
in 1939, didn’t you?
A Yes.
Q Did you write
this to him in 1939:
“The authorities were suspicious of espionage
and asked us questions accordingly. We
had no grounds for fear as we had committed no offenses. It wasn’t necessary to inform the government
of our designs, and some pretended that we wanted to spend the winter on the
boat in
Did you write that to Dr. Draeger
in 1939?
A I did not
write the letter in English words. That
is a translation.
Q Is that a
translation of what you wrote in German to
2406
Dr. Draeger?
A That is part
of one letter.
Q Part of one
translation, and I don’t know whether it is correct or not. I must see the German words. But I can explain what that is.
Q You can
explain it in just a moment. It is a
translation in substance of what you in German wrote to Dr. Draeger?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you
explain now?
A Well, we were
held by the F.B.I. and Coast Guard. I
had written to the Embassy in
I wrote Dr. Draeger this letter,
and in this connection I pointed at the matter of Cappelletti
and Schroeder. Cappelletti
is a sailor who has been here working for the Standard Oil Company and at that
time wanted to go over with us to
At the same time, before we brought that boat, this idea
had been brought up by a man by the name of Schroeder, who was working on a
Standard Oil Company boat, and he claimed to be at one time an officer trained
on the school ship Niobe.
We thought he knew something about navigation and sailing
and found out later that all he told us was not true and he was lying. He had gotten a lot out of us, trying to buy
that boat, and I told Dr. Dreager that. At the time I had lost quite a
2407
of money through him. He had borrowed $300 from my wife which I had
not known at that time that she had given to him, and then I made a complaint
about this fellow.
Q Who was Dr. Dreaeger?
A German
Consul.
Q Why did you
report this about Schroeder to Dr. Draeger? On account of the money you lost?
A No, because
he had been living as a German citizen, was taken care of, part, by the German
Government. He tried to swindle us out
of money here.
Q You thought
the German Consul ought to know about it?
A Yes.
Q Did you have
much correspondence with Draeger?
A No.
Q How many times
did you see him?
A I knew him
quite well.
2408
Q Where did he
live? Where did the consul live?
A In
Q You were not
in New You, were you?
A I lived out
of town.
Q Did you go in
to see him?
A I saw him
once in two or three months.
Q Did you go to
his office?
A Yes.
Q Did you answer
questions when you went to his office?
A No, sir. I just paid my party dues; I had to pay them.
Q Did you ever
know this fellow Cappelletti?
A Yes,
sir. He is a friend of mine, interned in
Q He is interned
now in
A Yes.
Q Is he an
Italian?
A No. He was born in the German-Italian district in
the
Q What was he
interned for?
A He was caught
on the way going to
Q Was he working
on the steamer?
A No; he was
traveling home. He was picked up by the
British.
The Attorney General.
That is all I have.
REDIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Who was Cappelletti, referred to in this letter?
A Cappelletti was one of the fellows who wanted to go with us
on a boat to
2409
too much about sailing.
Q What did you
mean in this letter by the statement (reading):
“Schroeder made such assertions which at
least should have been suppressed at that time and, what is more, according to Cappelletti, they were exaggerated.”
A He stated
that he had been an officer, had officers’ training in navigation and sailing
while in Germany, on a steamship, which we found out was not true; and we found
out he was nothing but an electrician on a Standard Oil Company boat.
Q In other
words, he represented himself to be an officer?
A Yes.
Q And the
statement “should have been suppressed” means he should not have said that?
A He should not
have said that, and they should have told us that, because they knew who he
was.
Q What did you
mean by “Party Candidate Cappelletti”?
A He had to
register in
Q That means he
was a candidate for the Nazi party?
A Yes.
Q You have to be
registered and then to be accepted; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know
whether or not the rest of this letter or that series of correspondence made
clear the matte referenced to?
A Yes,
sir. It must have been clear. There was only
2410
too much about sailing.
Q What did you
mean in this letter by the statement (reading):
“Schroeder made such assertions which
at least should have been suppressed at that time and, what is more, according
to Cappelletti, they were exaggerated.”
A He stated
that he had been an officer, had officers’ training in navigation and sailing
while in Germany, on a steamship, which we found out was not true; and we found
out he was nothing but an electrician on a Standard Oil Company boat.
Q In other
words, he represented himself to be an officer?
A Yes.
Q And the
statement “should have been suppressed” means he should not have said that?
A He should not
have said that, and they should have told us that, because they knew who he
was.
Q What did you
mean by “Party Candidate Cappelletti”?
A He had to
register in
Q That means he
was a candidate for the Nazi party?
A Yes.
Q You have to be
registered and then to be accepted; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know
whether or not the rest of this letter or that series of correspondence made
clear the matter referred to?
A Yes,
sir. It must have been clear. There was only
2410
letter. I had written one letter to the German
Embassy complaining that the should help us, and then I complained to him that
the German Embassy did not help us.
Q This had no
connection with any matter except mis-representations
made to you by Schroeder?
A That is right.
Q In connection
with helping you on your trip; is that right?
A And I think I
complained about money matters. He
handled money transactions for us.
Q You were asked
by the Attorney General something about a Mrs. Day.
A That is
right.
Q And I did not
quite understand what you said. Would
you mind telling me what you said about helping Mrs. Day?
A I lived at
Mrs. Day’s since last fall. Mrs. Day at
that time did not have—here money did not come in from her son any more, and
she had to rent a room, and I rook a room with her on the advice of my former
landlady, and I became very friendly with the woman and I helped her out with
money at that time until she could arrange a loan from relatives she had over
there yet. When the war broke out every
American had to register over there, and the lady was 82 years old, and it was
winter time, so she could not have gone there every week or every two weeks to
register. So I helped her out and went
with her to the registering office and vouched for her and they accepted her as
safe and did not make it a law for her to come there and register.
Q You say her
son was president of an insurance company?
2411
A Her
husband. The son is out of the insurance
business. I think he is some
scientist. He used to come every year to
Q Do you recall
the name of the insurance company of which her husband was president?
A No. It was one of the biggest. It has been mentioned to me.
Q Do you recall
any part of the name which might give us some indication?
A No; I do
not. It may be found in some register of
insurance companies. It must have been
quite a famous name here.
Q If I were to
give you the names of eight or ten insurance companies, do you think you could
select the one?
A No. I have tried that already. But I don’t think it should be difficult to
find him.
Q He is in an
insurance company in
A The father
was president of an insurance company in
Q Was she an
American citizen?
A I am not
quiet sure. She was classed as an
American citizen over there because her husband was an American and her son is
living here. She is classed as an
American
2412
citizen.
Q Did you have occasion
at any time while you were in
A I helped one
young American. I have not found his
name, but I can find it out if I had the passenger list of the ship I left on
in 1926. I met him on my trip home, and
I have written him at one time and he answered.
I have not seen him since. But
this January, I think it was, I was called to the office of the Gestapo and
asked about this fellow and was told he had come into Germany in 1939 and got
stuck over there and could not get back any more. At that time he had written a letter to a
neutral country. I think it was
Q He had written
to
A In
Q What was he
held for; do you now? What was the
charge?
A For giving
information that should not go out of the country—probably not intentionally,
but he was careless enough so that they questioned me on that and asked me if I
knew him.
Q At the time of
the tow letters which you wrote to Miriam, from
[6w] A I was working for the
Propaganda Ministry.
Q Both of those
letters were written before
A Yes.
Q You were asked
about some papers being signed at the school.
Each man went in individually and signed his papers, and you do not know
by seeing each what anybody signed, do you?
A no.
Q I did not
understand exactly what you said about the uniforms of the Nazi Party. Will you clarify that?
A I have been asked if I wore a uniform while on
visits over in
Q What form of
clothes did you wear going on the submarine?
You said something about working clothes.
A Fatigue
clothes, the ones that have been shown here.
Q They are not
naval uniforms--or are they?
A It is not a
full uniform of the navy. It is a work
outfit for the navy.
Q When did you
first learn of your wife’s illness?
A I had a few
letters from her, but most of it I heard when Mrs. Neubauer returned, and Mrs.
Becker, who were both friends of hers.
Q When was that?
A That must
have been last spring or summer, about a year ago.
2414
Q About Easter
last year?
A Yes.
Q What salary
did you receive when you were working for the Propaganda Minister?
A Around 600
marks a month.
Q You made some
statement in connection with your giving some of the money to Haupt. What did you say you were uncertain about?
A I was not any
too sure what Haupt was going to do up there.
If he had not any money he probably would have given us up right then
and there. I didn’t want him to do that
before I talked with him.
Q The Attorney
General asked you about a number of names of people and asked you about people
you had seen when you returned to
A I don’t know
if Helmut Leiner has been mentioned.
Q When did you
see him?
A We arrived in
Q You did not
know your wife’s address until you saw him?
A I didn’t
know. I knew she was somewhere in
Colonel Royall. That
is all.
RECROSS
EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q I think you
said you give money to Haupt to prevent
2415
his giving you up?
A Yes.
Q You did not
want him to give you up?
A No.
Q What happened
to this fellow Schroeder?
A He returned
to
Q When?
A Before
us. When Cappelletti
left, Cappelletti went on an Italian ship as far as
the
Q What happened
to Schroeder?
A I don’t know.
Q Where did you
hear about the trip?
A I found out
when I reached
Q Who told you
about it?
A The German
consul in
Q He knew all
about Schroeder?
A He had him
looked up because I was interested in finding Schroeder because he still had
$300 of my wife.
Q And you asked
him about Schroeder?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you ask
him about Cappelletti also?
A Yes.
Q Were you
interested in him?
A He was a good
friend and I was interested in where he was.
Q What was
Schroeder’s purpose in going over with you?
Why did he want to go to
A He was an
electrician on the Pan-American Line.
2416
At that time they were taken
off by American authorities and replaced by Americans and supported by the
Standard Oil Company in
Q I am not sure
I understand the answer to the question.
Why did Schroeder want to go back to
A By that time
they were out of work and just had enough money to exist.
Q He wanted to
get a job?
A Yes, sir.
The Attorney General.
That is all.
The President. There
are some questions by the Commission.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COMMISSION
Questions by the President:
Q You stated
that you were a loyal German. Did you as
a loyal German consider it your duty to come to the
A No, sir. I tried to get out of it. I preferred to be a soldier of
Q I understand
from your reply, then, that you did not consider it your duty to come to
A No, sir.
Q My remembrance
is that you stated in answer to Kappe’s original question that you wanted to
come to
A I didn’t say
I wanted to come, but I couldn’t say
2417
no, very well. He said, “Do you want to go to the
A member. Do you
still insist that you are a loyal German?
The Witness. Yes,
sir.
Questions by the President:
Q When you
buried the boxes of explosives on the beach in
A We had
noticed a few stumps around there, a few old palm stumps. That was about all we could remember.
Q I remember
also there was a wire frame involved.
A It would not
have been difficult to find if you walked that beach from the beginning; but
when you came down by car and parked right where the boxes were without knowing
it, it was difficult. If you walked
along the beach you would have found it.
Q Did you
discuss these identifying marks with other members of your group?
A It was
mentioned. One of them said, “There are
three nice palm trees; we will remember it by them.
Q They all
understood where the explosives are buried?
A I mean, it
looked so clear there that we could not have passed it.
2418
Q Before you
came to the
A No, sir,
I didn’t.
Q You never did?
A I have not
served in the German Army. I worked for
the German Army as a civilian--in that capacity--ranking as a lieutenant and
paid accordingly and treated accordingly, but never as a soldier.
Q I am talking about
any item before you came to the
A No, sir.
Q Did you have
military service with the German Army?
A Never. When I returned to
Q You say your
father was an officer in the German Army?
A Yes, sir.
Q Why did you
not serve in the German Army before you came over to
A I was too
young then. I was 18 then, and at that
time we had only that 18,000-man army, which had to sign for 12 years.
Q When you went
back to
2419
A (Interposing)
On short visits, yes.
Q (Continuing) --were
you not at that time checked up and registered for military service?
A No, sir. In 1933 they first stared in building up the
Army. That had not developed any, and I
was just there for three months--two and a half months, I think--and returned
here again. The next time I was over
there, I was there only four weeks, touring
Q I am
interested in knowing something about this attempt to get back to
A We all
used--put our savings together and bought this thing. We all had a little money in the bank from
working before. We worked steady and had
a few dollars.
Q I understood
you to say somewhere, either in your statement or in answer to some question,
that you were out of a job and that you had no money.
A No, I had--
Q (Interposing)
It was in reference, I think, to some question about the support of your wife.
A No, she had
not much money left. She had a job at
that time. We used all the money we had
and put it into that boat.
Q Who was it to
whom your wife loaned $300?
A To this
Schroeder mentioned in this letter.
Q Did you have
any money on deposit in
A No. My family is very well off.
Q That does not
answer the question I asked you.
2420
Did you have any money before
you went back?
A I had about a
thousand or fifteen hundred marks laying over there.
Question by a Member:
Q Did you
consider, as a loyal German, that you should go back and help
A That time,
yes.
The President. There
seems to be no further questions.
The Attorney General. I have one question.
The President. Proceed.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Did you buy
any Reuckwanderer marks in
A Not before I
left. Not before that trip I went home. I had bought a few bonds in 1937, I
think it was, and sold them. In
Q Where was the
money deposited? In
A With a friend
of mine in
Q When was that?
A Around 1937,
I think.
Q But did you
not buy any Reuckwanderer marks?
A No, sir.
Colonel Royall. May I have the reporter read the second or
third question the President asked him?
The President. I think that question was: “When you buried
the boxes on the beach in
2421
identifying marks, so as to
be able to find those boxes at a later time?”
Colonel Royall. That was not the question I meant. There
was on that had reference to whether he intended to carry out this plan, or
something like that. I just did not catch his answer.
The Attorney General. The answer was “Yes.”
A Member. The second question was: “Do you still consider
yourself a loyal German?”
Colonel Royall. That is the one. He said “Yes,” did he not?
The Witness. I said “Yes” at that time.
Colonel Royall. I did not hear his answer. That is all,
sir; no further questions.
The defendant Heinck desires to take the stand as
a witness.
(The defendant Heinck stepped forward.)
The President. Defendant Heinck, it is my duty to tell you
that you have the legal right now to do any one of several thinhgs,
just as you choose. First, if you want to do so, you may be sworn as a witness
and testify under oath in this case like any other witness; or second, if you
want to be sworn as a witness, you may
without being sworn say anything about the case to the Commission that you
desire—that is, you may make what is called an unsworn
statement. Or you may, if you wish, file a written statement with the
Commission or you may, if you wish, keep silent and say nothing at all.
If you do take the witness stand and fail to deny or staisfactorily explain any of the alleged wrongful acts
about
2422
which you testify at all, and
about which any evidence has been presented against you here, such failure on
your part may be commented on to the Commission by the prosecuting side when
the argument is made to the Commission at the end of the trial, and the
Commission may take it into consideration in determining whether you are guilty
or innocent of the offenses.
Do you understand fully all that I have said to you so far?
Mr. Heinck. Yes, sir.
The President. Have you consulted with your counsel in
connection with this?
Mr. Heinck. Yes, sir. I want to take the stand and be sworn
in.
The President. You wish to be sworn in and take the stand?
Mr. Heinck. Yes, sir.
The President. You have that privilege.
Colonel Munson. You swear that this evidence you shall give
in the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Heinck. I do.
Colonel Munson. State your full name.
Mr. Heinck. Heinrich Harm Heinck.
Colonel Munson. You are on of the defendants in this case?
Mr. Heinck. Yes, sir.
Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, the other
defendants who have gone on the stand were the
2423
[o6] want to offer one or two
witnesses in connection with that group, but there is no opportunity right now
to talk to them, and I do not want to delay the hearing for that purpose. So,
we are going into the case of those defendants who landed on
HEINRICH
HARM HEINCK
was called as a witness and
testified as follows:
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q You say your
name is Heinrich Harm Heinck?
A Yes, sir.
Q Heinrich, will
you try to reply to the questions asked you either by myself or the Attorney
General in a manner so that your answers can be heard clearly by the commission
and counsel and also by the other defendants in this case?
A I will.
Q How old are
you?
A I am 36—35
years old now.
Q When and where
wer eyou born?
A In
Q At what age
did you come to the
A I was 18
years old—18 years.
Q When did you
come?
A 1926.
Q You stayed
here long?
A 13 years.
Q You went back,
therefore, in 1939?
A That is
correct.
2424
Q What was your
business and occupation here in
A I was a tool
and die marker here.
Q Where did you
work?
A I worked at different
places. My last job was American Machine Tool Company, a branch of the Norden Bombsight.
Q Where was that
plant located?
A At
Q How long did
you have that position?
A It was about
one year.
Q Are you
married?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where is your
wife?
A In
Q Have you any
children?
A I have one
boy.
Q How old?
A A year and a
half.
Q When did you
return to
A 1939, in
March--April.
Q What had
happened in connection with your work before you left?
A Well, there
was talking going around that all non-citizens had to get out of this factory on account of these Government
contracts.
Q On account of
the Government contracts?
A Government
contracts, yes, sir.
Q Did that hav any connection with your return to
2425
A Yes, I went
back to
Q I wish you
would explain to the Commission just what you mean by that.
A Well, when I
was 18 years old, I worked on a German boat as a machinist--engineer’s helper—and
jumped the ship that time. I was 13 years in
Q Were you able
to apply for papers while you were here?
A No, I could
not.
Q Why?
A Because I
jumped the boat.
Q You came in
illegally?
A That is
correct.
Q You went back
for the purpose of coming back here legally; is that right.
A That was one
reason.
Q What were your
other reasons? Just tell the Commission frankly.
A My wife
wanted to go back to her parents. She didn’t see her parents for over ten
years, and they were past 76 years
old—her parents.
Q Did you have
any other reasons?
A No, sir.
Q Did anyone pay
any part of your passage over there?
A When I worked
at the American Machine Tool Company, a fellow came up there and said, “There
is a cheap way of going back to Germany through the German Labor Front,” and he
took me down to the German Consul, and they paid about half of the fare.
Q Did you
promise anything for that payment?
2426
A No, nothing
was promised.
Q How did you
expect to pay them back? Did you expect to pay them back?
A There was
nothing said about it. They asked me if I was a machinist. I said yes. Well,
they said they need them in
Q Did you intend
to work over there?
A Well, I was a
member here of the Bund, and a propaganda was over here that in Germany
everything is wonderful—just as good—so I thought I would just as well go and
try it out.
Q You thought
you would go over there and work if you could got a job; is that right?
A That is
correct.
Q You say you
had been a member of the Bund here?
A Yes, sir.
Q For how long?
A A little over
a year.
Q When did you
arrive in
A 1939, in
April.
Q What did you
do there?
A I worked in
an automobile factory, the Volkswagenwork automobile
factory in
Q How long did
you retain or keep that job?
A Till I went
to this school.
Q During the
time you were there, did you make any effort to return to
A I did.
2427
Q When?
A Oh, about
three months after I went in
Q About what
time? About what month of what year was
it?
A It was about
two months before
Q What efforts
did you make to get back? What did you
do about it?
A I went to the
A. O.--that is, the Ausland Organization--in
Q Why did yu decide you wanted to come back to
A Because I
didn’t like it over there.
Q What didn’t
you like?
A Whenever I
say something about
Q What did you
say about
A Well, one
thing, when I told them about conditions, how an American lives here--that he
can have chicken and have a big car and has a better car than our boss in the
factory--they didn’t like--didn’t believe me.
They thought I was making propaganda.
One
day I said, “If all the factories in
2428
like
this,
Q After
you were unable to return to
A When
I got back to
Q After
you stated you tried to get back to
A That
is correct.
Q What
happened about your going to this school?
A Well,
there was a meeting there from the A. O.--Ausland
Organization--in Fraunschweig, and Walter Kappe--he
addressed this meeting and talked for about thirty minutes, and after that
meeting a fellow by the name of Kurt Lass came up to me and asked me if I
wanted to go back to America. I told him
I would go right away.
He said, “It is no joke.”
Then he told me about --told me
everything about it--about stopping production of American factories.
Q Stopping
production of American factories?
A Or
slowing down production. So, he said to
me he is going to talk to Quirin, too.
2429
Q Did
he tell you how?
A No.
Q When
did you first learn how you were expected to slow down production?
A In
those three and a half weeks at school.
Q Well,
you learned it shortly after you got there, didn’t you?
A That
is correct.
Q And
did they explain what kind of plants you were to use them on?
A Yes.
Q What
did they tell you to do about that?
A The
main job was aluminum plants over here.
Q When
you learned what you were expected to do in
A Nothing. I wanted to come back to
Q Did
you continue in the school?
A That
is correct.
Q What,
if anything, was taught you in the school about hurting anyone or injuring that
person?
A Whatever
we do over here, we are not supposed to hurt anybody, was mentioned a couple of
times.
Q Did
they give you any reason for telling you that?
A Well,
not to arouse the American people.
2431
Q What, if
anything, were you told about getting any military information?
A Nobody ever
said anything about that.
Q Were you
instructed to report any military information to
A No, sir.
Q You did take a
course in secret writing, did you not?
A For about two
hours, yes.
Q What were you
to use that for?
A To
communicate between ourselves, but we never approved of it.
Q Were you instucted ever to use is to communicate with
A No, sir.
Q Did you know
anything about these hankerchiefs?
A No.
Q Did you know
anything about the matches with the secret ink?
A I saw once
matches when Dasch got dressed on the U-boat, before we left the U-boat. He put something on the table there and I saw
some kind of funny matches laying on the table.
Q Did you know
what they were?
A No.
Q Did you know
they were secret writing matches?
A No.
Q Did you know
anything about any address in
A No.
2432
Q What did they
tell you about when you were expected to commit sabotage?
A Well, they told
us we should rest or get used to the country for about three weeks, even up to
six months.
Q Did they tell
you how long or for what period of time you should commit sabotage after you
once started? Did they tell you what you
should do? You said something about
aluminum plants.
A Aluminum
plants, yes.
Q Did you, while
you were in
A No, never
did.
Q What was you
feeling toward it?
The Attorney General.
I object.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q What were your
intentions?
A Never had any
intention of going through with it.
Q Did you tell
anybody that?
A No.
Q In
A No, never
told anybody about this plan at all.
Q Did you make
any effort to get out of the plan?
A No, I never
did.
Q Why?
A Because I
wanted to go back to
Q You gave
statements to the F.B.I did you not?
A I did.
Q Was the first
statement you gave them correct?
A No.
2433
Q Why?
A I protected
all the other fellows in that statement, I gave wrong names.
Q Did you know
at that time that they had the correct names of anybody?
A I did not.
Q When did you
correct that statement?
A In my second
statement I corrected it all.
Q Is you second
statement wrong in any particular?
A There is one
part about giving the money to Dasch. I
protected a friend of mine there. I did
not want them to get the idea that--I said that I gave it to Dasch. That is not true.
Q You did not
give it to Dasch?
A That is
correct.
Q Did you tell
the F.B.I. anything about your intentions--what they had been—in connection
with this plan?
A I told them I
never wanted to go through with this plan.
Q Did you tell
them whether you ever intended to go through with it?
A I don’t think
I did.
Q You just said
you did not want to go through with it?
A That is
correct.
Q Heinrich,
after you landed in this country I believe you and Dick Quirin went together;
is that correct?
A That is
right.
Q Did you talk
with Dick Quirin after your landing as to anything about this plan and what you
were going to do
2434
about it?
A I talked to
Quirin a couple of times about not going through with this job. We were finding each other out, how to get
out of it. The way it was— the last
couple of days Dasch was away. We had no
connection with anybody. There was a
good reason in case we ever come back to
Q You had not
heard from Dasch and Burger and you had that excuse?
A I heard from
Burger, not from Dasch. Burger told us
he did not know where Dasch was.
Q He told you he
did not know where Dasch was?
A That is
correct.
Q When did you
first talk with Quirin about getting out of the plan or not carrying on the
plan?
A I believe it
was in the hotel we stayed.
Q Where was
that?
A When we first
came here.
Q What hotel was
that? Do you remember the name?
A Mar--
Q
A
Q When did you
discuss it with Quirin?
A Oh, on the street
a couple of times and in our rooms. We
took a room in a rooming house after that.
Q Had you
decided with Quirin what you were going to do about it?
A Well, we
wasn’t exactly sure what we were going to
2435
do, but somehow, to hide
somewhere— not exactly hide, but get a job somewhere and work here and lose all
connection of the other fellows.
Q Henry, are you
a member of the Nazi Party?
A Yes.
Q When did you
join?
A I applied
when I was over here and I was a member.
When I got back to
Q Are there any
other facts about this matter you wish to state to the Commission?
A No.
Colonel Royall. That
is all we care to ask you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Did you ever
apply for citizenship in
A I could never
try, because I had no papers at all. I
jumped the ship.
Q Did you tell
the German Consul about jumping the ship?
A I did.
Q What did the
German Consul tell you to do?
A I had trouble
getting a passport when I went back to
Q Did he find
out?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then what did
he tell you to do?
A Then I was
sent over to another room. There was a
fellow sitting there—I don’t know his name—and he asked me what trade I am in
and what I can do, if I know something about
2436
automobiles, and he sent me
over to another place—I forgot his name—where I should deposit my money—$450, something
like that—and they gave me a slip of paper instead of the money and sent me
over to the Hamburg American Line, where I got my steamship tickets.
Q When was this?
A 1939.
Q What was the
name of the German Consul?
A Draeger.
Q Draeger?
A That is
correct.
Q D-r-a-e-g-e-r?
A That is
correct.
Q Did you intend
to live in
A First I did,
yes.
Q That is, when
you were getting your ticket you did?
A That was my
intention.
Q Had you bought
any marks?
A I am not
finished with that question.
Q Sorry.
A I wanted to
see how it is over in
Q When did your
wife go over to
A We went over
to
Q Did your wife
intend to come back?
A No, she did
not.
2437
Q And at that
time you went over you did not intend to come back, did you?
A Well, I
wasn’t sure.
Q Who was the
fellow you spoke of at the machine tool factory company? Was that Quirin?
A That is here
in
Q That was in
A Yes.
Q Who was it
that spoke to you in the factory about going to
A Alfred
Schneider.
Q What did he
say about going back?
A Well, he said
he heard from somebody that through the German Consul we could go back to Germany
on a half fare, or something like that, he says.
Q Where is he
now, do you know?
A He is in
Q What is he
doing?
A I went with
him on the same boat to
Q Was he working
as a machinist when you last saw him?
A He was
working as a lathe hand.
Q You did not
meet Kappe before you saw him in
A I did.
Q I thought you
said that. When was it you first met
him? At that meeting where he spoke
somewhere?
A I met Kappe
over here in
Q What did he
say to you over here?
2438
A Well, I don’t
remember that.
Q Did you talk
to him?
A Well, we
shake hands.
Q How many times
did you meet him?
A Oh, we talked
at the meetings. I think I saw him about
four or five times.
Q You do not
remember what you talked about?
A No, I don’t
remember.
Q You remember
the landing on
A I do.
Q Do you
remember the Coast Guardsman? Did you
see him?
A I never saw
the Coast Guardsman.
Q Was it pretty
dark on the beach?
A It was very
dark.
Q Could you have
found your way back to that spot, do you think?
A I think I
couldn’t.
Q You think you
could?
A No, I could
not.
Q You could
not. Did you see all these other
defendants at the camp? Were these other
seven all over there?
A That is
correct.
Q Now, had you
ever seen Laas before he talked to you in
A I did.
Q Where did you
see Laas? At
the meeting where Kappe spoke?
A I saw him at
the meeting and I saw him in the
2439
factory.
Q In the factory
over here?
A In the
factory over in
Q In
A No.
Q What exactly
did Laas tell you?
What did Laas tell you?
A Well, he
first came up. He said, “Would you like
to go back to
I said, “Yes, right away”—made a joke out of it first. Then he says, “No kidding,” or something like
that. He says, “Kappe is looking for
some fellows to do some sabotage work over there or slow production in the
factories.”
Q He did not say
“do sabotage work,” did he? He said to slow down production?
A I believe he
said that, yes.
Q You think he
said “sabotage,” too?
A It is
possible that he mentioned that word.
Q So you think
when Laas spoke to you about it you knew what it was
for?
A I did.
Q Had Kappe
talked to you about it then?
A No, Kappe did
not say anything.
Q What did you
say to Laas when he suggested this?
A Well, I said,
“I am going.”
Q That was in
answer to his question if ou would like to go over to
slow up production or make sabotage?
A I guess that’s
the answer I said.
Q Did you mean
to go when you said, “I am going”?
2440
A Yes. He told
me then, “You will hear about this later on.”
Q Did you hear
about it until you got this typewritten letter?
A This is the
first time I ever heard about it again. That was about a month.
Q Do you
remember what the letter said? Did it just say to report to this Quincegut Farm?
A On the top of
the letter was written “Ewehr.”
Q What does that
mean?
A That means
“Defense.”
Q What else was
on it?
A Just how I
could reach this place in Quincegut. Take a railroad
train to Brandenberg and from there a
streetcar and a bus on the end station from the streetcar. It described exactly
how I could get there.
Q Did Quirin get
the same kind of letter?
A I believe he
did.
Q Well, he told
you he did, didn’t he?
A He never
showed it to me.
Q Did you talk
it over with him before you went down?
A We did talk
it over, yes.
Q What did you
say about it? Did you ask him whether he was going?
A I asked him,
yes.
Q What did you
say about it? Did you ask him whether he was going?
A I asked him,
yes.
Q What did he
say?
A He is going.
Q He is going.
Did he ask you if you were going?
A He did.
2441
Q What did you
say?
A I said, “I am
going.”
Q And you went down
together then?
A That is
correct—no, we did not went together. He went first to
Q Did you see Laas again before you went down?
A I saw Laas a couple of times.
Q Who was your
immediate employer? Who was the man you worked fro, your foreman or your boss?
A In
Q At that time.
A Volkswagenwerk.
Q That is the
kind of work you were doing. That is the name of the plant?
A Yes.
Q Now, you had
some boss over you, didn’t you? You worked for someone, didn’t you?
A I did.
Q Well, did you
tell him you were going down?
A I had to go
to the offices, to visit what you call personnel—
Q Personnel
office?
A Personnel
office, and there was a fellow by the
name of Prelle.
Q What did you
say to Prelle?
A I had to show
him that letter, so he could give us permission to leave the plant.
Q Well, were you
in the Army then?
2442
A I was not. I
never was in the Army.
Q You were
working for a private factory?
A That is
correct.
2443
Q And you went
to your boss and told him you wanted to go to the farm?
A I did.
Q And he said,
“All right; go ahead”?
A No. He tried
to stop me. He could not stop me. He tried to stop me from going to a place in Braunschweig.
Q You told him
you wanted to go?
A That is
correct.
Q Who is this
man you said you protected?
A The other
seven defendants.
Q I thought you
meant some special friend.
A It was about
the money.
Q Do you
remember the navy uniforms that were in court?
A Yes.
Q Did you wear
one of those in the submarine?
A I did.
Q And changed it
when you landed?
A That is
correct.
Q And put on
your civilian clothes?
A That is
correct.
Q Do you
remember who issued those uniforms?
A When we were
in
Q They were
operating this school as one of their offices; is that right?
A That is
correct.
Q I think you
said you were told when you came over here to wait for two or three months and
get yourselves worked
2444
in before doing any sabotage;
is that right?
A That is
correct.
Q Did you plan
to buy a farm before starting in on sabotage work?
A We never
wanted to do any sabotage work at all here.
Q Did you ever
plan to buy a farm while you were here?
A It was
planned from the school.
Q You never made
that plan?
A No, sir.
Q Who did make
that plan.
A I think it
was the Swenson fellow. He was supposed to be a farmer and would buy a farm and
when we would get nervous we could stay on this farm.
Q What did they
tell you about there being guards on the beach when you landed? Didn’t they
tell you there would be guards on the beach?
A Yes, sir.
Q And they told
you to change your uniforms?
A That is
correct.
Q Why?
A The idea was
in case we got caught we would be prisoners of war.
Q I think you
said, and I am reading from page 5 of your statement of June 23:
“Before
we left
Is
that correct?
2445
A That is
correct.
Q Then you said
that you would then buy a farm or other place of business where you would keep
the explosives without their being found, and return to the place you had
buried them?
A That was
planed by the school; yes.
Q By whom?
A By the
school; by Kappe.
Q And Dasch?
A Yes.
Q And who else?
A Nobody.
Q Did you tell
them you agreed to that plan?
A I had never
agreed at all.
Q Did you tell
them that you had agreed to that plan?
A I had nothing
to say at all.
Q You said
nothing about the plan?
A No, sir.
Q You did not object
to it?
A I didn’t
object to anything.
Q Did you write
your wife from the submarine also?
A I did not.
Q Did you
register at the Hotel Martinique?
A Yes; I did.
Q Under what
name?
A Henry Kaynor.
Q Was that the
name that was planned you would use?
A That was
given me by a fellow by the name of Dempsey.
Q You had
planned to use it, had you not?
A Yes. The only
papers I had was under that name.
2446
Q The false
registration card and the false Social Security card?
A Yes.
Q What address
did you give?
A I gave an
address in
Q Who suggested
that you give that address?
A Quirin.
Q When did he
suggest that to you?
A Because he
knew I was in
Q Was it a real
address?
A I don’t know.
Q You went to
A That is
correct.
Q What were the
names of the girls there?
A I don’t
remember any girls. I only remember the
name of the madame there. Her name was Anna.
Q Did you know
her other name?
A No, Sir.
Q What did you
tell her about this trip?
A I didn’t tell
her anything about our trip.
Q Did you go to
A Where I was
living, where I had my home.
Q How did you
register there?
A I gave the name
of Henry Kaynor.
Q
A Yes.
Q How did Quirin
register?
A Quintas.
Q Richard
Quintas?
2447
A That is
correct.
Q He gave
A I think he
did.
Q Was Quintas
the name that had been given him in
A That is
correct.
Q Who gave him
that name or suggested it to him?
A I don’t know.
Q Did you and
Quintas talk about Dasch running out on you?
A We did.
Q You were
afraid Dasch would give you up, were you not?
A I was not
afraid.
Q You thought he
would?
A I had an idea
that he would do so. I told the F.B.I.,
“I had a funny dream last night. I saw
Dasch standing in the F.B.I. office and he told about everything.”
Q Dasch did not
show up at one of those meetings in
A Yes, he
did. The first time we met in a
restaurant, Horn & Handarts restaurant, and he
showed up at another meeting place, at Grant’s Tomb at
Q When did you
first think that Dasch might give you up?
A It was just—
Q Just a
“hunch”?
A Yes.
Q How long had
you had that hunch?
2448
A When I was
down there on the beach, Burger came running back and he said, “Dasch got
stopped by a Coast Guard man,” and he said, “The Coast Guard man”—
Colonel Royall. May
it please the Commission, I think the cross-examination should be limited to
matters brought out on the direct, and I believe I should object to his asking
anything about that matter. I have let
him ask some questions that went beyond that, but I think I will have to object
to anything further.
The Attorney General.
I do not care to argue that point.
If the Commission thinks my questions are improper it will stop me.
The President. I
would not say that; but since this objection has been made the Commission will
admit the question.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Go ahead and
answer the question.
A He said to
the Coast Guard man that he is going to report it to Washington, or he will
hear from Washington, or something like that; and that made me suspicious.
Q I think I asked
you if Dasch showed up at all these meetings.
He did not show up at all of them, did he?
A We were
supposed to have one meeting at a restaurant called the Swiss Chalet, at 1
o’clock on Sunday, and he did not show up.
We waited there until about 2 o’clock.
Q When Dasch did
not show up, that was the time that Richard wanted to take charge of the group
and be the leader? Do you remember that?
A I never heard
anything about that, that he wanted to be the leader of the group.
2449
Q Do you
remember in Burger’s statement, which is part of the evidence, that he said:
“For approximately the next 45 minutes
both Richard and Henry were using profane language continuously when they found
out that George was not coming with me.
When Richard asked me where George was”—
The President. Will
you stop a moment, please?
Colonel Royall. May
it please the Commission, there was no direct examination on this feature, and
we object to any examination, not only on that account but because it is a
matter that the Commission has previously ruled on, that they cannot take the
statement of one witness and array it against the testimony of another. It is objectionable on two grounds. In the first place, we did not examine him
about it, and in the second place it is a matter that the Commission has
already ruled is not permissible.
The Attorney General.
This is a conversation had in the presence of the witness, something
that Burger said had happened when this witness was present. I think, as the Commission knows, that we
have the broadest latitude on cross-examination. I did not try to prevent direct examination
over the whole field. I am
cross-examining now on that meeting with the other conspirators in
Colonel Royall. May
it please the Commission, certainly nothing was asked about that on direct
examination, and I am sure that the Commission has already ruled that you
cannot take one of these defendants’ statements and read it to another, because
it could not refresh his recollection, and it is not the proper way to examine
a witness—to say
2450
is what another witness said
correct or not correct.
The President. Read
the question, please, Mr. Reporter.
The Reporter (reading):
“Q Do
you remember in Burger’s statement, which is part of the evidence, that he
said:
“’For approximately the next 45
minutes both Richard and Henry were using profane language continuously when
they found out that George was not coming with me. When Richard asked me where George was’— “
The President. We
will close the session and take a recess also for ten minutes.
(The
Commission was then closed and a recess was taken. When it reopened the following occurred:)
Colonel Munson. If
the Commission please, the witness is reminded that he is still under
oath. The same personnel is present now
as before the recess.
The President. The
Commission sustains the objection of the defense counsel in so far as the
Attorney General’s reading from the Burger confession is concerned. However, the learned counsel for the defense,
probably, if he refers to page 127 on the subject of an accused person taking
the stand as a witness, will understand why the Commission feels that in this
offer of the defendant to be sworn in his own behalf he is open to a wide range
of questioning, which I have no doubt the Attorney General will conduct from
now on in a little different form.
The Attorney General.
Yes, sir.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Did Quirin
ever say to you that you were not living
2451
up to the orders given to you
by
A That is
right.
Q When did he
say that?
A He said that
in this form, that we didn’t want to go through with the job and were looking
for some good reason to get out of it.
He didn’t say it exactly word for word like that.
Q When did he
say that?
A Oh, he talked
about it at different places, in the hotel, on the street, and in our room, and
when we were sitting waiting for Dasch in the restaurant.
Q Burger visited
you and Quirin on Friday night, did he not?
A Quirin and I
visited him; yes, sir.
Q Did you have a
meal together?
A With Quirin I
had a meal.
Q Did you and
Quirin go up to Burger’s room?
A We did.
Q Did you open a
drawer of his writing desk and take out a letter?
A There was
Quirin, and Burger was sitting or lying on the bed and I was sitting in a chair
next to a desk, and I said, “It is nice furniture you have”; and I pulled out a
drawer and there was two letters in there.
One was a bill of the hotel, and the other letter—I don’t remember what
was in it, but I handed it over to Quirin, and then I took another book about
hotels all over the
Q What was that?
A Different
hotels in the
2452
Q What was the
letter you gave to Quirin?
A I don’t
remember what was in that letter. There
was a letter from Dasch.
Q Did you read
any of it?
A I did read
it.
Q What did it
say?
A It was of no
importance. I didn’t keep it in my mind.
Q Did Quirin
talk to you about it afterwards?
A No; he did
not.
Q He never
mentioned the letter that you picked up, from Dasch?
A No, sir?
Q What was the
hotel bill that you picked up? Of what
hotel was it?
A I believe it
was the Governor Clinton. I am not sure;
I don’t know anymore.
Q Was it the
same hotel that Burger told you he was staying at, or a different hotel?
A It only
mentioned that Dasch paid his hotel bill for him. That was the bill Dasch paid for him.
Q Was it the
same hotel he told you he was staying at?
A I believe it
was.
Q But you do not
know the hotel?
A No.
Q On page 6 of
your statement of
“At the time they gave us these instructions
I asked a question as to how we should be able to return.”
Do you remember that?
2453
A That is
correct.
Q Who was
“they”?
A Kappe and the
people at the school. It was in front of
the whole school there.
Q You went on:
“If necessary, before the war was
over, having in mind that I might have a nervous breakdown or sickness in the
family”—
You meant a sickness in
A No. I meant over in
Q Let us read it
carefully and see:
“At the time they gave us these instructions”—
That meant the instructions at the school in
A Yes, sir.
Q “I asked a
question as to how we would be able to return”—
Did you mean, return to
A That is
right.
Q “If necessary,
before the war was over, having in mind that I might have a nervous breakdown
or sickness in the family.”
Is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did you mean
you had it mind that in
A The F.B.I.
men asked me if there was any way of getting back to
Q “Having in
mind that I might have a nervous breakdown or sickness in the family, and Dr.
Schultz”—
2454
He was one of the instructors, was he not?
A Yes, sir.
Q “told me that
it would be impossible to attempt to bring anyone back from
Is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q What year were
you in the Bund?
A It was either
1935 or 1934.
Q Did you wear the
Bund uniform?
A I did.
Q What kind of
uniform was it?
A Black pants,
boots, black belt, and a white shirt.
Q When did you
leave the Bund?
A That was only
when American citizens could join this Bund.
Q When did you
leave it?
A I believe it
was 1936.
Q Did you join
the D.A.V.?
A Yes, sir.
Q What is that?
A The labor
front in
Q You joined
that in
A I did.
Q Why did you
join it?
A To be in good
standing with the German government.
Q And the Nazi
Party?
A That is correct.
Q When you
arrived in
2455
German labor front?
A Everyone has
to report there if he wants to work in
Q Did you report
to the German Labor Front when you went to
A I did.
Q What did you
ask them for? Did you ask them for a
job?
A I didn’t
exactly ask them; it was given to me a job.
They asked me where I wanted to work, in what kind of factory.
Q Did they have
your record when you went there?
A I believe
they had.
Q Did you join
the National Socialist Party when you got there?
A I applied
here in
Q You did join
it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you were a
member of the party all the time you were in
A I was.
Q A member in
good standing?
A I was.
The Attorney General.
That is all.
REDIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q That statement
about which the Attorney General asked you said:
2456
“At the time they gave us
instructions I asked the question how we would be able to return if necessary
before the war was over.”
That was asked at the school; is that correct?
A That is
correct.
Q You did not at
the school disclose to anyone that you just intended to come to
A Will you
repeat that?
Q At the school
you did not tell them that you were just coming over to
A No; I did
not.
Colonel Royall. That
is all.
The Witness. I want to
say something else.
The President. There
are questions by the Commission.
A Member. He says he
wants to say something else.
Colonel Royall. He
wants to add something, if the Commission please.
2457
The Witness. When I
got this letter from Kappe directly from the school there was also the name of
Quirin on that letter. Before I was not
sure if there was only my name. I now
remember that Quirin’s name was on there too.
Question by Colonel Royall:
Q Are there any
further statements or any corrections you wish to make, Heinrich?
A No, sir.
Colonel Royall. That
is all we care to ask.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COMMISSION
Questions by the President:
Q If I remember
correctly, you stated that were very anxious to return to
A I was.
Q For what
reason?
A I liked the
liberty of this country, the freedom over here, what we did not have in
Q I think you
also stated that it was not the intention of your wife or family to return to
this country.
A My wife would
return rather today than tomorrow.
The Attorney General.
I did not understand that.
Colonel Royall. He
means either today or tomorrow.
The Witness. Any
time she would like to return to
Questions by the President:
Q But did you
not state in reply to a question of the Attorney General that you wanted to
come to America but that your wife did not wish to return to America? Did you state that?
A I think I
never stated that.
2458
Q I will ask you
this question again, just to clear up a possible misunderstanding due to your
English. Did your wife intend to return
to
A She did.
Q You, however,
left her in
A I had to,
sir.
Q What did they
tell you in
A They told us
nobody ever gets shot over here in
Q They told you
that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did they tell
you what would happen to your wife and family in
A Well, I could
just guess that.
Q Yet you were
determined to come back to
A Yes, sir.
The President. Are
there any other questions? There seem to
be none. The witness is excused.
Colonel Royall. My
it please the Commission, may I ask a few more questions?
The President. Yes.
FURTHER
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q In one of your
answers you said something partially in German, I think. Am I correct in understanding that you said
your wife would rather come today than tomorrow?
2459
A That is
correct.
The President. In
other words, do I take it “the sooner the better”?
Colonel Royall. That
is right.
The Witness. That is
right, sir.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q You said you
left your wife over there because you could not bring her here?
A That is
correct.
Q What means
would you have had of bringing her after you got here?
A Through
friends. She had her first papers.
Q She had her
first papers?
A Yes, sir.
Q Heinrich, the Commission
asked you a question as to what would happen to your family if you were caught
here. I think that was the
question. Would anything happen to them
if you were caught here?
A No, but if
they know what I talked about here—put in my statement—something would happen
to my wife if that comes out in the newspapers.
Colonel Royall. That
is all I care to ask.
The Attorney General.
That is all.
Colonel Royall. The
defendant Richard Quirin has asked to take the stand as a witness.
(The defendant Quirin stepped forward.)
The President.
Defendant Richard Quirin, it is my duty to tell you that you have the
legal right now to do any one of several things, just as you choose. First, if you want to do
2460
so, you may be sworn as a
witness and testify under oath in this case like any other witness; or second,
if you do not want to be sworn in as a witness, you may without being sworn say
anything about the case to the Commission which you desire—that is, you may
make what is called an unsworn statement—or you may
if you wish file a written statement with the Commission; or you may if you
wish keep silent and say nothing at all.
If you do take the stand and fail to deny or satisfactorily
explain any of the alleged wrongful acts about which you testify at all, and
about which any evidence has been presented against you here, such failure on
your part may be commented on to the Commission by the Attorney General when he
presents his argument to the Commission at the end of the trial, and the
Commission can take it into
consideration in determining whether you are guilty or innocent of the
offenses.
Do you understand fully all that I have said to you so far?
Mr. Quirin. Yes,
sir.
The President.
Knowing these various rights, consult with your counsel and then state
to the Commission which you will do.
Mr. Quirin. I
should like to be sworn as a witness.
The President. In
your own behalf?
Mr. Quirin. Yes,
sir.
Colonel Munson. Do
you swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now on hearing shall be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Quirin. I do.
Colonel Munson.
State your full name.
2461
Mr. Quirin. Richard
Quirin.
Colonel Munson. You
are one of the defendants in this case?
Mr. Quirin. Yes,
sir.
RICHARD
QUIRIN
was called as a witness and
testified as follows:
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Your name is
Richard Quirin?
A Yes, sir.
Q Richard, when
were you born and where?
A I was born in
Q I believe you
took your mother’s name?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know
what your father’s name was?
A No, sir.
Q I believe when
you were two years old your mother left you in the care of some friends; is
that right?
A Yes, foster
parents.
Q How long did
you live in
A Until I was
about 19 years of age.
Q When did you
come to this country? In what year?
A In 1927.
Q Were you
married here?
A Yes, sir.
Q When?
A In 1936.
Q Have you any
children?
2462
A Yes, sir;
one.
Q How old?
A It is one and
three-quarters of a year now.
Q Where are your
wife and child?
A My family is
with my parents-in-law in
Q Richard, what
was your occupation while you stayed in
A My trade is mechanic
and tool maker, but I have worked here at different jobs, like as painter,
mechanic, and tool maker, and at the last job I had was I worked there with my
wife together as a couple—chauffeur, and my wife was doing housework, and I was
taking care of the estate.
Q Where was that
job?
A That was with
Mr. W. J. Rauch,
Q When did you
return to
A In 1939.
Q Had you been
back there from 1926 to 1939?
A No, sir.
Q Was your wife
of German extraction, too? Was she a
German?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you file
for citizenship papers?
A I took out my
first paper.
Q Did your wife?
A That I don’t
know, sir.
Q When did you
take out your first papers?
A I am not
sure, but it was in either the first or second year when I entered here in this
country.
2463
Q Just before
you left for
A Just before I
left here?
Q Yes.
A I worked with
Mr. Rauch. I took care of his estate and
was his chauffeur.
Q Why did you go
back to
A Well, my wife
was sick for five or six months. She
went to the doctor almost every week or other week, and she complained about
having trouble with her stomach, and she couldn’t eat everything; she ad to be
on a diet; and I talked it over with Mr. Rauch, my employer, and we thought it
was due to homesickness, because she complained mostly of—to see her folks, and
stuff like that, and that made up our minds to go back.
Q Did you have
any other reason for going back?
A No, sir. I wanted to stay here. I had a pretty good job, and Mr. Rauch liked
me very much, and I had no other reason to go.
Q Her
family—your wife’s family—lived in
A Yes, sir.
Q Richard, did
you while in
A Yes,
sir. I belonged to the Friends of New
Germany. That was, I think it was, in
1933.
Q Did you at any
time join the Nazi Party?
A Yes, sir.
Q When?
A I remained
with these Friends of New Germany for, I think, a little over a year—something
like that—and at
2464
[o8] that time I have heard people kick about
different things and that—at the same time complaining that there were German
citizens in this organization that don’t belong there, or something to that
effect, and I have listened to that long enough and wanted—I wanted to do the
right thing, and I went down to the consulate, and I was shown to a man in
there whose name I don’t know any more, and I asked him, as I was a German
citizen, whether this was correct or not, and he told me that I had no business
being in political organizations—and I was seeking his advice, and he said to me I should go down and get a paper which shows that I resigned
this organization, which I did.
I brought it back to him, and he told me he would take my
name, and if in the event I ever returned to
Q When you went
to
A Yes,
sir. I have also heard at the time or
before that time—I read that the Government was paying passage or giving free
passage to people or helping them to get over there, and I tried to save money,
of course, and I went down to the consul and asked about this, and they asked
my occupation, and they offered me a free trip to Germany and would give me
work—give me a job.
They also told me that I probably would have to wait two
more months for passage, at which time my wife was very sick, and I talked it
over with her, and I made her go before me.
She went two months ahead of me on a ship, for which passage I paid, and
I remained here with friends two more months, and I
2465
went back on the
Q When you got
to
A When I got to
Germany, I was met at the dock, where the ship docked, by fellows from the
Labor Front, and we were taken—there were more travelers like myself on the
boat—we were taken to a hotel, and there each one of us talked to these men.
They asked us what our occupation was and where we would
like to work, and so on. I having—my
wife, rather, having a nephew in Braunschweig, and
working at the People’s Cars place, I expressed my desire to work there, and
they told me it was all right; I should report at the plant.
Q Had you joined
or did you join the German Labor Front?
A Yes. At the time when I was starting to work, I
was given the address of an office and told that I should bring other papers
which I had to get. They also told me to
get a paper which showed that I belong to that—that I belong to the Labor
Front.
Q How long did
you work at that job?
A Until I went
to this school.
Q Did you while
working there meet any of these other defendants?
A No, sir,
except Heinck.
Q You did not
know any of the others before that?
A No, sir.
Q What was the
first information you had about this school?
A It was this
year in February, I think. You see,
2466
there were more American
people there over at this village where we lived. In fact, all around us there were people that
come from this country, and they used to gather once in a while in a hall and
had meetings—or not meetings but a get-together, like, you know. At one of those get-togethers I was invited
to—this fellow Kappe showed up. He was a
guest there, and he made a speech—something like that. He told those people there that they have not
been treated the way they expected in Germany, but he asked them to be content
because it is war, and all this, and things will become better—something to
that effect.
Q What happened
then?
A Well, after this
we had a few drinks, and we went home, and the next day I met Henry Heinck, and
he told me about having heard that we can go to America on some mission. He didn’t tell me at the time what it was,
and since we had been talking with our wives and neighbors, and so on, nothing
else except America, and expressing the wish to go back sometime, and also at
the same time knowing that we couldn’t do so because we had no reentry permit,
naturally when I heard about this, I was interested, and I told him that he
should go ahead; that I was interested.
Of course, nothing further happened then until one day he
showed me a letter which had his name and my name on there instructing us to
come to a certain place in
Then, it also told that we should bring swimming trunks,
and stuff like that, along and be there at a certain date. Well, Henry took this letter to the office
and asked for leave
2467
to go there. They, of course, wouldn’t give him the leave
right away. They said they would let us
know. I don’t know how long it took;
either that day or the next day; I don’t know.
They let us know we could go.
2468
Q Well, now, up
to that point, Richard, what did you know or understand about the purpose of
the school?
A To tell you
the truth, I knew it was some kind of work—Henry said to do some kind of work
in
Q Now, how long
did you stay at the school?
A I think it
was not quite three weeks. Two weeks we
had school and the first week we were waiting for the teachers and the other
fellows to show up. It was not quite
three weeks, I think.
Q What, if
anything, did they tell you you were to do in
A We were
instructed by Kappe to hinder production by cutting down power lines or
stopping electric current to go into the aluminum factories and destroy tracks
leading to these factories which supplied it by railroad, and I have heard
something about water locks at the river or canal. I don’t know which.
Q Were you told
to get any information in
A No, sir.
Q Did you have
any instructions of any kind like that?
A No, sir.
2469
Q Did you study
secret ink?
A Yes, sir.
Q What were you
told about the secret ink?
A Well, we were
supposed to write to one another in case we wanted to meet somebody. If I wanted to meet Henry and he was living
some place else, instead of writing him an open letter I was to use that secret
ink.
But at that time when we had this, about two hours
schooling we had there—I don’t remember anything of it any more, or not
much—when we got through there we walked out in the yard there. I spoke openly, and I think some of the
fellows heard me—and Henry has for sure—that this was very silly and I never
was going to use it, anyhow.
Q Were you
instructed to use it for any purpose except to communicate with other members
of your particular group?
A No, sir.
Q Did you know
anything about any handkerchief?
A No, sir.
Q Or any
addresses on it?
A No, sir.
Q Did you know
anything about any address in
A No, sir.
Q Were you instructed
to communicate with anybody outside of your group?
A No, sir
Q Were you
instructed to communicate with
A No, sir.
Q Did you take
any radio instruction?
2470
A No, sir.
Q Were you told
to inspect or try to get any information of any kind about
A No, sir.
Q Now, Richard,
did you know anything about these matches?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever
hear of them until you got here to this courthouse?
A No, sir. I told the F.B.I., when they asked me about
matches, I did not know what they mean, but I recall that George Dasch gave us
over—I think it was France somewheres—he gave each
one of us a book of matches. Those were
regular American matches in this book form, you know, and he said to us that we
were supposed to have some matches on us when we come to America, and I lit my
cigarettes with these matches, and they were regular matches, and when he saw
that I used them right away, then he took them away from me. That’s all I know.
Q Those were not
that matches with the secret ink on them; those were regular matches?
A Yes, sir.
Q Richard, what
intention, if any, did you have about this school and this instruction?
A I was more
scared of it than I let know at the time, and when we landed here and we met
George the next day at the Grant Tomb, Henry was walking with George and I was
walking with Peter, and we were together for only a short time. Then we departed again.
2471
George told us at that time, I think, that he was going to
leave—go out of town somewheres—and then Henry and I
walked away and had something to eat somewheres, and
he told me that George had told him that we were not going to get the boxes,
and he said to me, “I think this job is over now,” and from that time on we
started to talk about having hopes that is was all over, that we was not going
to do anything anyway.
Q When did you
first become uncertain as to whether or not you would do anything in
A Well, I tell
you, I was uncertain about myself during the school already, since I never had
anything or knew nothing about explosives, and when I found how it works I was
really afraid of the stuff, and I felt sure I could never do anything like
that.
Q Did you tell
anybody in
A I only told
my brother-in-law that I go to
Q Richard, what
was your intention when you were in
A Well, my
intentions were these. I did not, of
course, make up my mind yet how to go about it, but I had in mind to come here,
and since we had enough time—three to
2472
six months, they told us we could
take it easy—I was going to see my former employer, Mr. Rauch, and I formed an
idea that I could get some advice from him what I could do, and I was going to
ask him about it in order to get in right with the law, and after the war I was
going to have my family come over here to live here.
Q Did you talk
to Henry at any time at Grant’s Tomb?
A Yes.
Q Was that the
time you were telling us about a moment ago?
A Yes, and I
talked to Burger during the school one time, or was it—I think it was during the
school some evening—I told him I was going to have—would try to have my wife
come over after the war with America.
Q Something was
said about you being an assistant to Dasch, the leader of your group.
A No, sir. Pete Burger told me one or twice, I think, my
job was to look out that Henry does not get drunk, because he likes to drink
very much. That’s the only thing I heard
about being an assistant to anything.
Q Did you think
that the plan was possible to carry out?
A I didn’t
know—I did at one time, when we was visiting the factories over there and I saw
how well guarded they were—I pointed out to Burger—we was walking together—and
I said, “Do you think they are any different over there?” That’s all I said to him.
Q You gave some
statements to the F.B.I.?
A Yes.
2473
[6b]
Q The first of
those statements was not correct, was it?
A No, sir. The first statement—at first I was afraid
this would all come out in the papers and I did not dare say anything, or just
as much—I couldn’t help, you know. I
tried to say as little as possible for fear it would come out in the papers.
Q Why did you do
that?
A That I gave
no correct statements?
Q Why didn’t you
want it to come out in the papers?
A I did tell
them—oh, well, I was afraid it might hurt my family over there.
Q Did you later
give them full information?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell
them about the industrial conditions and other conditions in
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you answer
all the questions they asked you?
A Yes, but I
did ask them—I told Mr. Wiand—I told him about my
intentions to come here and have my wife come over here after the war, but I
asked him not to put it in my statement, because I did not want it to be known.
Q Now, Richard,
if there is any other statement of fact or of your intentions that you desire
to make, I would like you to state them to the Commission at this time—anything
I may not have asked you that you yourself think might be material.
A Nothing I can
think of right now.
Colonel Royall. That
is all we care to ask.
2474
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q You made two
statements to the F.B.I.?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are they both
correct except for what you said?
A The first one
is incorrect.
Q Yes, but
otherwise they are correct except for what you said?
A The most part
is correct, yes.
Q Is there
anything in the statements that you have not mentioned that is incorrect?
A I can’t think
of anything. For one thing, I remember
not saying Kappe’s name, or something like that, in the first statement, and—well,
I don’t know exactly, but I went more into detail in the next statement.
Q I think I said
“two statements.” I think it is three
that you made to the F.B.I.?
A Yes. The last one was something that I remembered
afterwards and it was in addition to the first one or second.
Q But, in
substance, with the exception of the first one you told about, the three
statements were correct, were they not?
A The three
statements were correct?
Q You have
already said that the first statement was not altogether correct.
A That’s right,
and the other two were correct.
Q Who is the
leader of your group? Dasch?
A Yes.
2475
[8b]
Q Was Dasch
active in getting up the group at the camp?
Did he seem to be?
A Yes—in fact,
he was told to do so. He looked out for
us. He helped us make up the stories.
Q Was he pretty
intimate with Kappe there?
A He seemed to
be, yes.
Q Was Reinhold
Barth teaching there, too?
A Not teaching.
He hade what you would call—well, lectures he gave.
Q He gave
lectures?
A Something like
that.
Q Was Reinhold
Barth related to Dasch?
A That I didn’t
know.
Q Did those two
seem to be intimate?
A I didn’t see
nothing special about that. I only heard
here in the courtroom that they were.
Q Had you ever
seen Reinhold Barth before?
A No, sir.
Q You were not
forced to go down to the camp, you volunteered?
A Of course
not. As I stated, that’s the way it was.
Q Exactly what
had you heard about the camp before you went down to it?
A Of the camp I
heard nothing. The first thing I heard
about this camp was when I saw the letter that Henry had received telling us to
go to this farm.
Q What had you
heard about a possible trip to
A That I heard
before, when Kappe was there, and Henry told me that we would have a chance to
go to
2476
and do some kind of work in
Q Didn’t you
then know that the work was to be preventing production?
A No, sir.
Q You did not
hear that phrase at all?
A No, sir.
Q Did you go to
a member of the German Army in
A No, sir.
Q Did you talk
to anybody else about the camp, with the exception of Kappe, before you went
down?
A No, sir. We got that letter and we went from there to
the camp.
Q You were a
member of the Nazi Party in
A Yes.
Q You were a
loyal Nazi, weren’t you?
A Well, I
suppose so. I had no active work in
it. I was just paying my dues, that’s
all.
Q You paid
voluntarily when you went over?
A Yes.
Q Were you a
loyal Nazi?
A I think so.
Q You are a loyal
German, aren’t you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you say to
Burger or Heinck that the orders were not being obeyed?
2477
A Pardon me?
Q Did you say
either to Burger or Heinck that the orders you got in
A No, sir.
Q You did not
say anything like that?
A No, sir.
Q You are sure
of that?
A Yes, sir.
Q You saw all
seven of these defendants at the camp?
A Yes.
Q Who was the
leader of the other group?
A Edward—Kerling.
Q Kerling. Did you intend to do sabotage?
A No, sir.
Q Never?
A No,
sir.
Q So there was no change of mind on your part?
A No, sir.
Q Did you plan
to give yourself up to the F.B.I.?
A No, sir, I
had not made up my mind as to what I was going to do.
Q Had you ever
planned to do that?
A I don’t think
so. I would like to explain this. George—the way I was in that state of mind,
not knowing what to do, and having had a few talks with Henry about it, if George
Dasch would have come and told me about his plan, I would have gladly sided
with him.
Q Kappe told you
you ought to be like a German soldier
2478
and do something for the
Fatherland, didn’t he?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you want
to do something for the Fatherland then?
A Well, I told
you it was my aim to come to
Q Did you intend
to do something for the Fatherland, as Kappe told you you
ought to do?
A I don’t know.
Q You do not
know whether you intended to help the Fatherland or not?
A I wanted to
help the Fatherland, but I don’t know whether I was going through with all
that.
Q You wanted to
combine coming to
A I don’t think
so.
Q What would be
right?
A I was trying
to come here. That was my main
objective, and in the meantime I was playing up to be just what they wanted me
to be and trying to make up my mind when I was over here.
Q What did they
tell you as to how you would be treated when you got back when the war was
over?
A They told me
I was to receive a good job.
Q They told that
to others. I suppose?
A I don’t know.
Q Did Henry
approach you after Kappe had made the speech in
A Yes. I think it was the next day that he told me
2479
about it.
Q What did Henry
suggest to you?
A He didn’t
suggest anything to me.
Q What did he
say to you?
A He just told
me about it. He told me that he has
heard that Kappe’s real reason for coming where he was was
to find some men or people that were to go to
Q Some kind of
war work?
A Work, yes.
Q War work?
A That I don’t
know.
Q
A I assumed it
was something like that, naturally.
Q Did Dasch tell
you that he was staying at the Hotel New Yorker here?
A As I recall
it, I thought the first meeting we had was at the Grant Tomb, but now during
this trial I recall it that we met at this Horn & Hardart
Restaurant, and I think that he mentioned they were going to stay--it may have
been the New Yorker--I am not sure-- and he suggested also to us to go the
Chesterfield Hotel, and he also gave me the address, but we didn’t go there,
for the reason because Henry and I walked all day and we happened to be near
this hotel where we stayed, and we just stopped in there.
2480
Q I think you
said you thought the secret ink writing was very silly, did you not?
A Yes.
Q What did you
mean by that?
A I don’t know
how to say it, but, anyhow, that is the way I expressed it. I thought if I really wanted anything I could
write a letter without secret ink.
Q Did you not
understand that the leader of each group was to correspond with
A No, sir.
Q Did you
understand that the leader of your group was to make any report to
A No, sir.
Q You did not
know anything about that?
A No, sir.
Q Did you not
talk to an army man before you came down to the camp at Rankestrasse
5,
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you
talk to him; how long before going down
to the camp?
A You mean,
Kappe?
Q I said, did
you not talk to an army man at Rankestrasse 5,
A No, sir; not
before I went to school. The first
meeting I had with any of the school--
Q When did you
talk to that army man? Was that after
the training?
A I don’t know
what army man you refer to.
Q Who said “I
think the job is over now”?
2481
A Pardon?
Q You said that
one of your group said, after landing, “I think the job is over now.”
A It was Henry.
After the meeting we had with George and
Pete and Grant’s Tomb George had told him that we were not going to get the
boxes, and after Henry and I had walked away he told me that the job was over
now, since we didn’t have to go for the boxes, and it was understood that we
would have to leave them there.
Q Why? Because it was known that you had landed?
A No. I think George expressed that it was too
dangerous to get them, or something like that.
I didn’t speak to George myself.
Henry told me.
Q On account of
the Coast Guard having seen you?
A It may have
been.
Q Was not that
the reason?
A I don’t know.
Q Did you think
it was too dangerous to get the boxes?
A Yes.
Q Why did you
think so?
A I just
thought it was dangerous. I didn’t want
to go near the place.
Q You were
issued a false registration certificate?
A Yes, sir.
Q And a false
Social Security card?
A Yes.
Q And you were
given a story to use, and a certain name, over here?
A Yes.
2482
Q What was the
name?
A Richard
Quintas.
Q Did you
register in that name?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you
register in that name?
A At the
Q Did you give
and address at the
A Yes, sir.
Q What address
did you give there?
A I think I
gave either
Q Was it a
correct address?
A If it was
Q 28 Pinewood
Avenue?
A Yes.
Q That was your
uncle’s address?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever
live there?
A Yes.
Q When did you
live there?
A In 1927 when
I first came over.
Q I notice that
at the Governor Clinton you registered in the name of Richard Quintas?
A Yes.
Q And at that
time you gave the address
A Yes. The number is incorrect because I don’t know
2483
the number any more.
Q You mean, you
had forgotten the other number you used before?
A No, I gave
any number, because I didn’t know what number we lived at. But the street is correct.
Q I think you
have heard me ask one of the other witnesses whether at any time you wanted to
take over command of your group?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever
say it?
A No, sir.
Q Did you ever
say that to Burger?
A No, sir.
Q Never said
that?
A No, sir.
Q I think you
said you were a member of the Friends of New Germany?
A Yes, sir.
Q What year was
that?
A I think it
was when I first entered in 1932.
Q In
A Yes.
Q Did you have a
uniform?
A Yes.
Q When did you
wear the uniform?
A At all our meetings.
Q All drills or
parades?
A No, sir.
Q Just at the
meetings?
A Yes, sir.
2484
Q Did you buy
any Reuckwanderer marks?
A Yes, sir.
Q At the
consulate office?
A No, sir.
Q At a bank?
A I think it
was a bank.
Q What year did
you buy them?
A The year when
I went back, 1939.
Q How much did
you buy?
A Five hundred
dollars.
Q Is my
understanding correct that you signed a paper saying you were going to live
permanently in
A You did not
sign any paper, but it was understood at the time that if you did buy Reuckwanderer marks you cannot take out a reentry permit;
and after I had bought the marks they told me they could not give me a reentry
permit.
Q From
A Yes, sir.
Q The marks were
credited to you in
A Yes, sir.
Q Was it not
done on the understanding that you would not try to get back to
A I would not
try to get back?
Q The marks were
placed to your credit in
A And stay
there; yes, sir.
Q I am going to
read to you from your statement of
2485
June 25, page 20.
A Is that the
first one?
Q It is the
second statement, I think. The first
paragraph on page 20.
A First, I want
to ask you if you made this statement and, secondly, whether it is
correct. I think you said that most of
what you said in your second and third statements was correct, and I am going
to ask you, first, if you made it and then whether it is right:
“I was not forced to come to the
Is that right?
A Yes.
Q “I volunteered
after I was made acquainted with it.”
Is that right?
A Yes,
sir. I was just asked. I did not come forward, but was asked if I
wanted to go, and I said yes.
Q Your statement
is:
“I volunteered after I was made acquainted with
it.”
Is that a correct statement?
A That is what
I mean by that; yes.
Q What, again,
do you mean? I do not quite understand
you.
A I said I was
asked to do this and I said yes.
Q To do what?
A To do
sabotage work.
Q You said:
“I knew that I was working for the
benefit of the German government in this war by doing what I could in
2486
the United States to hinder production of war supplies and material”
Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You said:
“At
the time I was at school in Germany and at the time I boarded the submarine it
was my intention to come to the United States and to do this work, and if I had
not been apprehended it is possible that I might have carried out my
instructions, although I am not sure.”
Is that correct?
A The statement
is correct. I made that, naturally.
Q Was it true?
A I would not
say it; no.
Q Was it untrue?
A I had doubts
in my mind on the submarine already, you see, and as I said before already, I
always feared this might come in the papers and I didn’t dare say anything
else.
Q Was that
statement true?
A I made the
statement; yes.
Q Was it true or
untrue?
A It was not
true.
Q I thought you
told us a little while ago that the statements made in your second and third
statements were true.
A Yes.
Q Do you want to
change that and say they are not true?
A I explained
that in my mind I had given it up before, but I didn’t know how to do it, and
when this statement
2487
was made I said it this way
because I thought it was the only way to say it.
Q But it was
untrue?
A Somewhat so.
Q Somewhat
untrue?
A Yes.
Q How was it
somewhat untrue?
A As to my
intentions. As to my real intentions it
is somewhat untrue.
Q You said you
promised that you would do it; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q You said:
“I
did not feel myself any different from any soldier over there, as I felt it was
my duty to do something for the fatherland, being a German citizen and being
loyal to
Did you make that statement?
A I did.
Q Was that
statement true?
A In the same
sense as I just explained to you
Q Was it true or
untrue?
A It was not
quite true.
The Attorney General.
I think that is all.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Richard, I
believe you stated that there was a suggestion that you take charge of Henry in
your group and see that he behaved himself?
A That is
right.
2488
Q In that sense
you were assisting in looking after Henry?
A I was looking
after Henry.
Q You discussed
that, did you, with the others?
A Yes, I
did. I discussed it two days, I think.
Q You were asked
about buying marks. You bought them and
then did you learn, or did you learn before you bought them, that that meant
you were supposed to stay in
A No.
Q Tell us about
that.
A At the time
my wife returned to Germany, you see, just a few days before that I was getting
the papers all ready, you see, my sailing permit and everything else, and we
went down to the bank and bought these Reuckwanderer
marks, and after that we went down to the customs office and everything else
and had to come back to the consulate, and back and forth; I don’t know just
how it went. Then they explained to us
at the consulate, I think, that I cannot buy Travelers checks when I have Reuckwanderer marks, and also cannot get a reentry
permit. So I did have some Travelers
checks, I think, for $100, which I wanted to give my wife for the trip, but I
had to change them again.
Q That is the
first time you learned about that?
A Yes, sir.
Colonel Royall. That
is all.
Questions by the President:
Q Did the group
leaders receive more instruction in
2489
secret writing than the other
members of the group?
A That I do not
know. At the time when we were in school
we all received the same time; I mean there was no difference. I was sick for two or three days and was
lying in bed. Whatever happened those
two or three days I do not know.
Q You say you
were sent over to delay production. Yet
you also say that you were told that if necessary you need not do anything for
from three to six months.
A Yes, sir.
Q What sense was
there to that?
A Well, they
were in a way trusting us. In other
words, Kappe took us to this class room one day—that was before the teachers
came—and he made a speech and said, “Now, when you get over there you have
everything there; you have money and you can buy everything over there
different from here,” or something to that effect, “and there is no way we can
check up on you. We will just have to
trust you. When you get over there you
can take three months off or six months off.
You do not have to do nothing at all.
It is up to you. But we rely on
you,” or some words like that.
Q Did he tell
you that you would have to obey the leader of the group?
A Yes, sir; we
were supposed to follow his orders.
Q In everything?
A Yes, sir.
Q What would happen
to you if you did not obey the orders of your leader?
A Over here I
don’t think nothing can happen to me.
If, for instance, if I had gone away, nothing could have
2490
happened to me; but in the event that I didn’t
follow orders and George would come back some day and tell about it, they would
probably not pay my family any more money.
Q Were you told
at the school by Kappe that if you did not obey orders the other members were
authorized to do away with you?
A No; I have
not heard anything like that; but I have heard something else. Kappe said that if anybody would get cold
feet he could be put somewhere on a farm or be brought away to rest up. But not to do away with him. I never heard anything like that.
Q Were any
threats ever made to you by any other members of this group?
A No, sir.
Q Did you make
any threats to anybody else?
A No, sir.
Q You never made
any threats to George Dasch?
A No, sir.
Q Did you make
any threats to Burger?
A No, sir.
Q Do you know whether
or not there are member of the Gestapo in the
A I don’t know
that, sir.
Q You do not
know any member of the Gestapo in the
A No, sir.
Q You never
heard of any?
A No, sir.
Q You mentioned
in talking about Kappe’s trusting you and the other defendants that the subject
of giving you money
2491
came up and that you could spend it at your
own discretion?
A Yes, sir.
Q What did you
intend to do when you decided not to carry out this thing? Did you intend to live on that money, or did
you intend to return it to some German representative?
A Of course
not. I had not made up my mind
whatsoever, but I had it in mind to see my former employer who had been very
nice to me and whom I could ask for advice at any time. But I didn’t know whether I dared to see him
and tell him about it at all or not; and since we had only been in
Q You felt some
obligation, then, to the German government, since it was supporting you, did
you not?
A I never
thought about it. But as you mention it
now, I think I would have.
Q Did you
communicate with your former employer, Mr. Rauch?
A No, sir.
Q Why not?
A I didn’t make
up my mind just what to do.
Q Is he a
German?
A No, sir. He was born here in this country.
Q Did you look
up his telephone number?
A No, sir.
2492
Q Did you know his telephone number?
A I knew where he
lived and I thought he still lived there, but at the F.B.I. office I found out
from one F.B.I. agent who knew him very well that he has given up the estate at
Chappaqua, and his office work and everything, and has moved or retired to the
Adirondacks, at North River.
Q You learned
that after you were apprehended?
A Yes, sir.
Q You did not
call him up on the telephone before you were apprehended?
A No, sir.
Q What did you
do with the money that was given to you?
A I had it in a
money belt and I kept it in my room in a suitcase.
Q Who got it?
A Pardon?
Q Who got it?
A The F.B.I.
agents.
Q Did you give
it to them?
A No, sir; I
was apprehended on the street and I made out a waiver that they could search my
room.
The President. That
is all.
Colonel Royall. May
I ask a couple of questions?
The President. Yes.
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q Was the three
months period or six months period you mention for the purpose of getting
acquainted with the country before you did anything?
2493
A That was the instructions; yes, sir.
Q This Mr.
Rauch—what is his name?
A William J.
Rauch.
Q Did you
connect with him since you have been here?
A No, sir.
Q You got along
with him all right, did you?
A Yes, sir;
very well.
Q What is his
address? Do you know what it is now?
A His address
formerly was
Q There was one
reference you made in answer to a question by the Commission which was not
entirely clear to me. You said you had
instructions that if any member got cold feet he was to be put on a farm or
something like that?
A Yes; he was
to be permitted to stay away from it.
Q He was to be
kept in some place until he was over it?
A Maybe I
understood it wrong, but to my knowledge it meant that you could withdraw if
you felt that you could not got through with it. Anyhow, that is the way I took it and the way
Kappe explained it to us.
Colonel Royall. That
is all.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q I do not
understand that yet. You could be
dropped if you did not go through with it?
A Yes, sir.
Q You mean, you
were given to understand that any one who got cold feet could just drop and
nothing would happen
2495
to him?
A Something
like that.
Q How much money
did you spend?
A I am not
sure, but the money belt was supposed to contain $4,000. I did not count it. I took out, I think, two or three 50’s and I
did have—George gave me on the submarine about $300, I think.
The President. There
is one more question by the Commission.
Questions
by the President:
Q George Dasch
was your leader, I take it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you obeyed
all his orders?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you have
obeyed his orders to spy in this country?
A No, sir.
Q He was your
Fuhrer, was he not?
A Yes.
Q You would have
obeyed all his orders to commit sabotage?
A I am not sure
about that.
Q Would you exercise
a certain discretion, then, as to the orders from your Fuhrer?
A Yes, sir.
Q Does he get
his authority from the Fuhrer in
A From Kappe, I
think.
Q I mean, the
ultimate authority. All authority comes
2495
right down from the Fuhrer of the German
people?
A I don’t think
so. I don’t know anything about that.
Q Kappe was an
army officer, was he not?
A Yes. He was, to my knowledge, the boss of the
outfit. Anyone else I don’t know.
Q And he gave
orders to George Dasch, the Fuhrer of this group?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you were
to obey his orders?
A I was to obey
his orders.
Q And you did?
A Up to then;
yes.
Q When did you
stop obeying his orders?
A We had not
received any orders from him, so I cannot say when I stopped, but when he left
us right after the second day—he left town, as he told us before, and as Burger
had told me there was no orders and I didn’t have to obey them.
Q You were to do
as you pleased?
A Yes.
Q How long?
A I really
can’t answer that very truthfully, because, as I mentioned before, this thing
was going around in my mind and I didn’t know just what to do and what to obey
and what not to obey, you see.
Q Did you
realize the seriousness of this mission in the event you were apprehended?
A I realized it
the minute I landed here.
The President. Are
there any further questions by the Commission?
(No response) There seem to be
none.
2496
The
Attorney General. May I ask one more?
The President. Yes.
Question
by the Attorney General:
Q If the Fuhrer
had told you to spy and blow up plants over here, would you have done it?
A I don’t
know. I never met the Fuhrer. I don’t know what kind of a man he is. How can I answer that.
The Attorney General.
That is all.
The President. Shall
I close?
The Attorney General.
We would prefer to have you close.
The President. I
mean, shall adjourn now?
The Attorney General.
We would prefer to have the Commission adjourn now unless you wish to
sit longer. I think Colonel Royall would
like to adjourn now. We both have a
pretty good amount of work to do.
Colonel Royall. And
not meet before 10 o’clock in the morning?
The Attorney General.
I would prefer that, too.
The President. The
Commission is adjourned until
(Whereupon,
at 4:45 o’clock p.m., the Commission adjourned until tomorrow, Saturday, July
25, 1942, at 10 o’clock a. m.)