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Cover Sheet
STENOGRAPH TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Before the
MILITARY COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS
CHARGED WITH
OFFENSES AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE
ARTICLES OF WAR
________________
Volume XVI
Pages 2575 to 2750
2575
CONTENTS
Name
of Witness: |
Direct |
Cross |
Redirect |
Recross
|
By
Commission |
Dean
F. McWhorter |
2578 |
|
|
|
|
Earl
J. Connelley |
2588 |
|
|
|
|
Ernest Peter
Burger |
2592 |
|
2680,2699, 2708 |
|
2685 |
by the Attorney General |
|
2619 |
|
2698,2707 |
|
by Colonel Ristine |
|
2664 |
|
|
|
Marie
Kerling |
2716 |
2722 |
2725 |
2726 |
|
Hedwig
Engemann |
2727 |
2735 |
2740 |
|
2745 |
Col.
Stephen. H. Sherrill |
2745 |
2750 |
|
|
|
Thomas
J. Donegan |
2758 |
2761 |
|
|
|
EXHIBITS
Prosecution |
For
Identification |
In
Evidence |
In
Record |
P-266 Citizenship papers of Burger |
2626 |
2627 |
|
Defendants’ |
For
Identification |
In
Evidence |
In
Record |
G Memo, |
2582 |
2582 |
2583 |
H Letter, |
|
2701 |
2701 |
I Letter, |
|
2701 |
2702 |
J Discharge of Burger |
|
2701 |
2702 |
K Discharge of Burger |
|
2701 |
2705 |
L Confidential War Department letter |
|
2711 |
2751 |
M Map attached to exhibit L |
|
2711 |
|
--ooOoo--
2576
STENOGRAPHIC TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Before the
MILITARY COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS
CHARGED
WITH OFFENSES AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR
AND THE
ARTICLES OF WAR
_______________
The Military Commission appointed by
the President by order dated July 2, 1942, met in room 5235 Department of
Justice, at 10 o’clock a.m., to try for offenses against the Law of War and
Articles of War, the following persons: Ernest Peter Burger, George John Dasch,
Herbert Haupt, Heinrich Harm Heinck, Edward John Kerling, Hermann Neubauer,
Richard Quirin, and Werner Thiel.
PRESENT: Members of the Military Commission, as follows:
Major General Frank R. McCoy,
President,
Major General Walter G. Grant,
Major General Blanton Winship,
Major General Lorenzo D. Gasser,
Brigadier General Guy V. Henry,
Brigadier General John T. Lewis,
Brigadier General John T. Kennedy.
As Trial Judge
Advocates:
Honorable Francis Biddle,
Attorney General of the
Major General Myron Cramer,
The Judge Advocate General,
Colonel F. Granville Munson,
Colonel John M. Weir,
Major William T. Thurman,
Officers
of the Judge Advocate General’s Department.
Oscar Cox,
Assistant
Solicitor General of the
As Provost
Marshal:
Brigadier General Albert L. Cox.
2577
As Counsel for the Accused except
George John Dasch:
Colonel Cassius M. Dowell,
Colonel
Kenneth Royall.
As Counsel for the Accused George John
Dasch:
Colonel
Carl L. Ristine.
- - - - -
PROCEEDINGS
The President. The session is open.
Colonel Munson. The full personnel of the Commission, the
eight defendants, and the reporter are present.
The full personnel of the prosecution
is present except Colonel Treusch and Mr. Rowe.
The full personnel of the defense is
present except Major Stone, Captain Bruton, and Captain Hummell.
Colonel Royall. Is the Commission ready to proceed?
The President. Yes.
Colonel Royall. I beg your pardon, Colonel Ristine.
Colonel Ristine. If the Commission please, I would like to
call the Federal Agent of the F.B.I., Mr. McWhorter, of
Lieutenant Page. Mr. D.F. McWhorter. This witness has not been sworn as to
secrecy.
Colonel Munson. Mr. McWhorter, the Commission instructs me to
inform each witness who appears before it that it requires an oath of secrecy
as to these proceedings that nothing shall be revealed that is learned inside
the courtroom without the courtroom, and also instructs me to inform each
witness that a violation of the oath of secrecy may result in punishment by
contempt proceedings or other proceedings of a
2578
criminal
nature.
In taking the oath you understand that
to be the fact?
Mr. McWhorter. I do
Colonel Munson. Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that you will not
divulge the proceedings taken at this trial to anyone outside the courtroom
until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by
property authority, so help you God?
Mr. McWhorter. I do.
Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall give in
the hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. McWhorter. I do.
DEAN F. MCWHORTER
was
called as a witness for the defense and testified as follows:
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q Will
you state, please, your full name, your business address, and your occupation?
A Dean
F. McWhorter, 607 Federal Court House,
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Mr.
McWhorter, did you have a conversation over the telephone on or about the
middle of June with a person who gave his name as Pastorius?
A Yes.
Q And
have you since learned that that person was the defendant Dasch on trial in this
case?
2579
A No,
I have not learned that.
Q Well,
would you tell the Commission, in your own way, as near as you can, what was
said by Pastorius or the man who gave that name, as well as yourself, and when
was that conversation, first? Do you
remember when that conversation was held?
A Yes. I was working on the evening of June 14 on
the regular office assignment.
Q Was
that a Sunday?
A Sunday
evening, yes, sir.
Q Yes.
Now just go ahead and relate to the Commission the conversation as you
recall it.
A Well,
it was a man that was speaking, and he said that he wanted a record made of the
call, I believe that was the first sentence that he gave me – and I asked him
what his name was, and he gave me some name I did not understand. I asked him to spell it, which I believed he
spelled the last name, and asked him what type of information he wished to
give, and he said well, he would not bother with giving it to me.
Then I asked him to come to the office
and he said no, he was going to Washington and give the information, and I told
him that we had an office in New York, it would not be necessary, and he said
no, he wanted to see somebody in Washington first, and he refused to give me
his address.
That’s about all the information I
could get from him.
A Didn’t
he give you the nature of the information.
Q No,
not at all. He did say that he had
arrived from
A He
said he had arrived from
Q Well,
he said he had arrived from
2580
two
days ago, is the way he put it.
Q And
did he tell you that he thought the information he had to divulge was of such a
character that it should be divulged at
A I
don’t remember that he stated it that way.
He simply did not want to come to the
Q Did
he ask you to advise the
A Yes.
Q And
did he tell you that he would be down on any particular day?
A He
said Thursday or Friday.
Q And
didn’t he tell you that he thought the information was so important that it
should be reported direct to
A He
said he was going to see Mr. Hoover, yes.
Q Well,
didn’t he say that he thought it was of such importance that it should be
reported direct to
A No,
I wouldn’t say that. He said he wanted
to give it to Mr. Hoover.
Q And
declined to give the information to your office in
A That’s
right.
Q But
he knew he was talking to the F.B.I. office?
A I
believe so. I don’t know whether he did
not.
Q Well,
didn’t you know from the conversation that he knew he was talking to an F.B.I.
agent?
A He
might have. I don’t know what he
thought.
2581
Q Well,
didn’t you advise him who you were? You
did not answer the telephone in the first instance, did you?
A Probably
not.
Q Don’t
you have an operator there in the
A Yes,
sir.
Q And
didn’t the operator call you and tell you that somebody wanted to speak with an
F.B.I. agent? Isn’t that the reason you
were called?
A My
phone rang and I answered it.
Q Well,
didn’t your operator up there advise you that somebody wanted to speak to an
F.B.I. agent?
A No,
the operator rings the phone and I answer the phone.
Q And
she does not give you any information at all?
A That’s
right.
Q Was
there any doubt in your mind whether the party knew he was talking to an F.B.I.
agent?
A I
can’t answer that. I don’t know what he
thought.
Q Did
you advise the
A I
did not.
Q Did
anybody in the office up there?
A I
can’t answer that.
Q Did
you suggest that anybody advise the
A I
prepared the information I received in a memorandum.
Q Well,
that memorandum you prepared was solely for the
A Certainly.
2582
Q And
it was not prepared with the idea that anybody would notify the
A Why,
certainly, if they cared to.
Q Well,
why didn’t you see to it that the Washington Office was notified of this
information?
A I
prepared the information in memorandum form for review by my supervisors and
their action.
Q But
didn’t you say in that memorandum that it was prepared solely for the office
information there in
A I
said it was prepared for record of the telephone call.
Colonel Ristine. Mark that.
(Photostatic
copy of memorandum of D.F.
McWhorter,
dated
For
identification Defendant’s Exhibit G.)
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q I
hand you a photostatic document marked “Defendant’s Exhibit G” and ask you
state if you can identify that (handing a document to the witness).
A This,
I believe is a photostatic copy of my memorandum.
Colonel Ristine: We offer that
memorandum in evidence and would like to have the witness read it into the
record, if the Commission please.
The President: Is there any objection?
The Attorney General. No Objection.
(Defendant’s
Exhibit G was received in
evidence.)
2583
DEFENDANT’S EXHIBIT G
The Witness (reading).
“
RE: F.D. POSTORIUS
MEMORANDUM FOR THE FILE:
“Please
be advised that at
“POSTORIUS”
advised that he had arrived in
“This
memo is being prepared only for the purpose of recording the call made by
POSTORIUS.
“Respectfully
submitted,
“D.F.
McWhorter,
“Special
Agent.”
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Now,
there is not any doubt but that he requested you to notify the Washington
Office that he would be down here Thursday or Friday, is there?
2584
A That’s
right.
Q And
you did not notify the Washington Office, did you?
A I
personally did not.
The Attorney General. I object.
This witness has said exactly what he did. He did his duty. He told his superior, I think all this
examination is irrelevant. The
memorandum is in. What has happened has
been told. This is simply going over and
rehashing it. He did his duty. He told his superior. It was not his business to notify anyone.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Well,
why did you put in the last paragraph, “This memo is being prepared only for
the purpose of recording the call made by Postorius”?
A I
would have to explain that further.
Q Well,
that is all right. Explain it.
A Well,
in receiving information in our office agents who receive it are requested to
make some suggestion as to further investigation, often, and, in my judgment,
that information that was furnished there – I would offer no further
investigation or no further suggestion for investigation.
Q Don’t
you think it would have been better if you had suggested in the last paragraph
that this matter be communicated to the Washington Office, as requested?
The Attorney General. I object.
What has it got to do with this case what this witness thinks would have
been better if he had done something else?
I object to the question. I think
it is perfectly improper.
2585
Colonel Ristine. I think the question is perfectly proper, if
the Commission please.
The Attorney General. The witness received a communication and
reported it to his superior. What
relevancy to facts has it to ask whether or not he did not think he ought to
have done something else? It is not a
question of what he thought he ought to have done. I do not think it is a proper question. I think all of it is irrelevant, after you
get a record of the call. That is the
only purpose of this examination. The
rest of it is just a waste of time.
Colonel Ristine. I am a little bit surprised that the Attorney
General would suggest that I am attempting to waste any time. I certainly think that it is pertinent to
know about it that when a person calls the F. B. I. office in New York and says
he has just arrived from Germany and that he has some information that he wants
to give to Hoover and asks that person to communicate the fact to the
Washington office that he is going to be here on Thursday or Friday to give
that information, and then when the memorandum is prepared, instead of
suggesting the information be forwarded by the New York office, he says in the
memorandum that it is made solely for recording the call in the New York
office.
The President. Well, I think that speaks for itself as an
office memorandum.
Colonel Ristine. It does speak for itself, if the Commission
please, but I am trying to develop what the reason was for not carrying out the
suggestion. It seems obvious to me that
the suggestion should have been carried out and the
2586
some
good reason why it was not done, I would like to have the witness state it.
The President. Ask him that question.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Will
you tell us why you did not in this memorandum suggest that that information be
communicated to the Washington Office?
The Attorney General. That was not the question that I think the
General had in mind. I think General
McCoy wanted to know if there was any good reason why it was not communicated. You have not developed whether it was communicated
or not. How do you know it was not?
The President. Ask some direct questions that will bring
out the facts that you are anxious to have in the record.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Did
you consider it advisable to communicate that information to the Washington
Office?
The Attorney General. I object.
The President. I think that question has been answered by
the witness both on the stand and in the memorandum.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Can
you tell the Commission why you did not take steps to see that this information
was communicated to the Washington Office?
A I
was simply reporting the information, setting it out in a memorandum for action
by my supervisors.
Q But
in your recommendation in the memorandum you restrict any action on the part of
your supervisor by suggesting that it is made solely for the information of the
2587
Office.
A That
sentence at the last would not restrict the supervisor from taking any action
that he thought advisable on it.
Q It
certainly suggests that you do not think it advisable that he take further
action, doesn’t it?
A No,
I would not say that.
Q Tell
me something. Did the
A I
can’t answer that.
Q Well,
do you know of any information they had respecting that at the time?
A I
had no information at that time.
Q You
had none. Colonel Ristine. I think that is all.
The Attorney General. Have you any questions?
Colonel Royall. No questions.
The Attorney General. No questions from me.
The President. Are there any questions from the
Commission? There seem to be none. The witness is excused. Colonel Ristine. We would like to call Special Agent
Connelley.
The President. Are you conscious that Mr. Connelley was in
the room at the time of your last witness’s testimony? Colonel Ristine. Well, if the Commission please, I believe Mr.
Connelley has been in the room during the entire trial.
The President. You still want him under those
conditions? Colonel Ristine. Yes, sir.
I would like to call him.
2588
Colonel Munson. Mr. Connelley, you have been sworn to secrecy
already, haven’t you?
Mr. Connelley. Yes.
Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall give on
the stand shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Connelley. Yes, sir.
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q Will
you state, please, your full name?
A Earl
J. Connelly, Assistant Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Mr.
Connelley, were you in charge of the proceedings that led up to this trial for
the Department of Justice?
A I
was for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Department of Justice.
Q Do
you recall when the matter was first turned over to your supervision?
A On
Monday, June 15, although I was in the office at the time the case was first
delivered into our hands on June 13 by the U.
S. Coast Guard.
Q Do
you know whether any information had been furnished to the New York Office
respecting what had been discovered on the
A The
material on that was reported to us on Saturday
2589
morning,
on June 13, and the material recovered turned over to us by the U. S.
Coast Guard.
Q Yes,
I understand that, but had any of that information been forwarded to the New
York Office on June 14?
A It
was turned over to us on June 13, Saturday.
Q You
are speaking of the
A Material
recovered on the beach and the fact that the landing had been made.
Q You
are speaking, I believe, about the
A No. I was at
Q Oh,
I misunderstood you. I thought you were
in the Washing ton office.
A No,
I was in
2590
Q Was
the information given to the various agents in the New York Office?
A Only
such agents as were concerned with the investigation
Q Was
McWhorter concerned with the investigation?
A He
was not.
Q The
information was not given to him?
A It
was not.
Q Was
the memorandum which Mr. McWhorter prepared, of date
A It
was not; and the reason I can furnish you if you require it.
Q You
were in charge of the case from June 12, I believe?
A From
June 13 I was in possession of all the facts that concerned the case at that
time. And up to that time there was no
identification of any person of that name and no medium by which he could be
identified with the case at that time.
Q Was
the information contained in this memorandum communicated to the
A Not
that I know of, sir.
Colonel Ristine. I think that is all.
Colonel Royall. We have no questions.
The President. The witness is excused. The witness left the stand.
Colonel Royall. If the Commission please, I understand that
the defendant Dasch does not desire at this time to offer
2591
any
additional evidence. Therefore I desire
to examine, under oath, the defendant Burger.
The President. Defendant Burger, it is my duty to tell that
you have a legal now to do any one or several things, just as you choose. First, if you want to do so, you may be sworn
as a witness and testify under oath in this case like any other witness; or,
second, if you do not want to be sworn as a witness, you may without being
sworn, say anything about the case to the Commission that you desire; that is,
make what is called an unsworn statement; or you may, if you wish, file a
written statement with the Commission or, third, you may, if you wish, keep
silent and say nothing at all. If you do
take the witness stand and fail to deny or satisfactorily explain any of the
alleged wrongful acts about which you testify and about which any evidence has
been presented against you here, such failure on your part may be commented on
to the Commission by the prosecution when the argument to the Commission is
presented at the end of the trial, and the Commission can take it into
consideration in deciding whether you are guilty or innocent of the
offenses. Do you understand fully all
that I have said to you so far?
The Defendant Burger. I do, sir.
The President. Knowing these various rights, which will you
do?
The Defendant Burger. I would like to be sworn as a witness, sir.
The President. In you own behalf?
The Defendant Burger. Yes, sir.
2592
The President. Have you counseled with Colonel Royall and
defense counsel in regard to your action?
The Defendant Burger. Yes, sir.
The President. Take the stand, please.
Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall now
give in the case on hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
The Defendant Burger. I do.
Sir.
was
called as a witness for the defense and testified as follows:
Colonel Munson. State your full name.
The Witness. Ernest Peter Burger.
Colonel Munson. You are one of the accused in this case?
The Witness. Yes, sir.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Where
were you born?
A In
Q When?
A
Q I
believe that there has been introduced in evidence a statement which you gave
the F.B.I., about 64 pages long; is that correct?
A Yes,
sir.
Q You
gave that statement freely?
A I
did.
Q Voluntarily?
A Yes,
sir.
2593
Q And,
so far as you now recall it, is it correct in every particular?
A It
is absolutely correct, sir.
Q Have
you since the giving of that statement desired to change it in any manner?
A I
do not change it.
Q I
believe you gave a short supplemental statement which is which has not been put
in evidence. That does not contradict
the first statement in any respect, does it?
A It
was not a supplementary statement, sir; it was a condensation of the first
statement.
Q Does
it contradict the first statement in any way?
A It
does not; I do not think so.
Q You
do not think it does, anyway?
A No,
sir.
Q Since
you have given such a full statement and it has been put in evidence, please
make your answers to my questions as short as you can, to be accurate.
A Yes,
sir.
Q It
is unnecessary to take up the time of the Commission to go into great
detail. At the beginning of this case
you were willing to go on the stand personally, were you not?
A Yes,
sir.
Q And
your lawyers advised you, on account of the other defendants, not to take the
stand?
A That
I should take the stand later.
Q You
lived in
A Up
to 1927.
Q You
came to
2594
A February,
1927.
Q And
stayed here until 1933?
A Yes.
Q What,
in general, was your occupation spurning that period here?
A I
worked generally as a tool and die maker.
Q Did
you obtain your final citizenship papers while in
A I
did, sir.
Q While
you were in
A I
was a member of the National Guard in
Q Did
you receive an honorable discharge from those bodies?
A I
did.
Q Where
are those honorable discharges?
A In
the possession of the F.B.I.
Q Did
you have them with you when you were apprehended?
A I
had them with me.
Q Did
you receive any button or insignia of any kind?
A The
sharpshooter’s insignia.
Q Is
that also with the F.B.I.?
A I
suppose so, sir.
Q It
was with you when you were apprehended?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you have a special letter from any commanding officer?
A I
did, sir.
2595
Q Was
that also with you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q I
believe you went to
A Before
this war; yes, sir.
Q You
went there, I believe you said in your statement because you were having
difficulty during the depression in finding work, and your family sent you a
ticket to come; is that right?
A Yes.
Q While
you were in
A I
did not, sir.
Q You
did join the armed forces in
A I
joined the armed forces when I was drawn in 1941.
Q Did
you participate in any fighting in
A Since
1933?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Did
you participate at any time?
A Before
I came over to the
Q That
was prior to 1927?
A Yes.
Q Did
you receive any decorations before you came to
A Yes,
sir. I had two decorations for bravery
in action.
2596
Q What
became of those?
A After
I had difficulties with the Gestapo they took them in and I was not allowed to
wear them any more.
Q Before
you came to
A When?
Q When
did you join the Nazi Party?
A February,
1923, up to 1925.
Q You
were what was called one of the old Storm Troopers; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Upon
your return to
A I
did, sir, in 1933, when I came back.
Q What
connection, if any, did you have with Roehm?
State briefly what your connection was with Roehm and what happened to
Roehm.
A I
came in the fall of 1933 to the High Command of the Storm Troopers, and at that
time the chief of staff was Ernest Roehm.
At that time I had a position as Aide de Camp and remained on the staff
up to June of 1934, when he was killed.
Q At
that time were large numbers of old Storm Troopers killed?
A Yes,
sir.
Q How
did you escape?
A I
happened to be assigned to the Chief of the Medical Corps at that time, and he
was the only one who had the confidence of Adolf Hitler.
2597
Q Who
was he?
Q How
many of the leaders and their friends were killed at the time of the Roehm
purge?
A Around
three thousand.
Q From
that time on what was the feeling between the old Storm Troopers and the newer
members of the Nazi Party?
A From
that time on the entire course of the party changed.
Q The
entire course?
A Yes,
sir. The original program was not
followed any more. Our former enemies
got into the party, secured jobs, and they formed a very strong opposition
against anyone who had belonged to the Storm Troopers before 1933.
Q How
were the old Storm Troopers treated by the newer members of the party?
A You
see, we were more or less soldiers, either trained soldiers or trained by
street battles and all that, and our opposition were politicians, people with
more or less ideas for business, making personal profits. We never thought of that. So, of course, when we realized that, we
started to fight them and naturally were not strong enough, and they put us in
jail and removed most of us.
Q When
was Roehm killed?
A On
Q Shortly
after that time did you form any intention to get out of
A After
Roehm was killed, most of the old Storm Troopers tried to get out of
2598
Q Was
it easy for them to get out of
A It
was easy to get out of
Q Did
you make an effort, following the purge, to get out of
A I
did, sir.
Q I
believe you have covered that pretty fully in your statement, as to your
efforts, have you not?
A Yes.
Q You
referred to Miss Eva Schultzend Hana Hausofar?
A Yes.
Q After
you failed in your efforts to get out of
A Yes,
in 1939 and 1940, after the war started.
Q What
was the relation between the Gestapo and the Nazi Party? They are members of the party, but what is
their exact relation?
A They
are not exactly members of the party.
Q What
are they?
A May
I explain that?
Q Yes,
I think we would all like to know that.
A It
is not so very easy. Before Roehm was
killed, Himmler was below Roehm; Himmler was just the chief of the Schutz
Staffel, or the S.S., which was a part of the Storm Troopers. After Roehm was killed, Himmler with his
Schutz Staffel, were separated from the Storm Troopers, and built up
2599
[as
a police guard, a police force, as a secret police; and that was the time when
the Gestapo originated. Finally Himmler
was made Chief of Police, of the secret police, also of the uniformed police,
and his right hand man at that time was Heydrich, and he organized and built up
the Gestapo as it is now.
Q Pete,
were any charges made against you by the Gestapo?
A About
the outbreak of the war, when I was in Poland, I got in difficulties with the
Gestapo, and at first they didn’t make any charges, and finally they gave my
case over to the Justice department and put up a charge of falsification of
papers.
Q Was
there any basis for that charge?
A There
was no basis whatever. I was arrested on
the same day. When I reported to see the
governor of the state in the morning, in the evening I was arrested.
2600
Q Were
the charges investigated on several occasions?
A They
were, four times. I had four times a
trial in court, and four times it was dropped.
The charge put up against me by the Gestapo -- that is a certificate
where the reason is pointed out why I am in concentration camp. It said because I injured gravely the
reputation of the Schutz Staffel and every way undermined the confidence of
people in state and party.
Q Notwithstanding
those charges being investigated and found groundless, did they continue to
arrest you?
A Well,
they kept me 17 months.
Q Where
were you exactly during those 17 months?
A First
I was in the jail in
Q Do
you know about how long you stayed in that cellar?
A About
three months; then they took me over to the Justice Department -- delivered the
whole case to the Justice Department -- and they put me five weeks in prison
and set me free -- gave up the charge, as a I told you -- the first trial --
and dropped it. But the Gestapo did not
give me free and put me in the -- in concentration one year.
Q Where
was that?
A I
was one year in a building in
Q That
altogether was 17 months?
A 17
months.
Q I
believe you have covered that pretty well in your statement, but tell us briefly
how you were treated during that time, Pete, by the Gestapo.
2601
A Well,
I don’t think I can say anything about that, sir.
Q You
have covered that in your statement?
A Partly
I have.
Q Were
you treated badly?
A The
witness did not answer.
The President. I did not hear any answer.
Colonel Royall. He did not answer; he just said he did not
want to say. I think it will be apparent
why he does not in a few minutes.
The Witness. May I add something to that? It was not the treatment of myself what
really hurt, but what they did to my wife.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Well,
I am coming to that.
A That
was it.
Q You
could stand your treatment, could you?
A I
could stand it.
Q What
did they do about your wife?
A They
at first know that my wife expected a baby.
They had her come down to headquarters several times and they told her
that I stole some money in a town at
Q Had
you ever been in
A I
never was in
Q Go
ahead with your story.
A She
refused to get at divorce. Naturally she
had a
2602
breakdown,
and they took her to the hospital. They
had to operate on her, and she had this -- I think you call it a
miscarriage. They kept on telling her
that she had to get a divorce as a German woman because I was not able to, and
told her she should bring my uniform down.
I was in civilian clothes when I was arrested. They told her she should bring my uniform
down to Gestapo headquarters, so I should wear it, and they could take off my
-- rip off my epaulets. She refused that
also. After a while they made me write a
farewell letter to my wife, telling her that I never come back, and so on;
stopped my bank account. That is all.
Q Did
they take away your epaulets and decorations?
A They
did.
Q What
effect did that treatment have on your determination to get out of
A Well,
that is very clear, I think.
Q I
am sure it is clear, but what effect did it have on your intention to get out
of
A Well,
you see, when I had the reason -- when my reason to get out of Germany before I
had difficulties with the Gestapo was political, just a change of the party
from the original program, an opinion which I had not alone, but had thousands
of my storm troopers -- from that time on the reason to get out of Germany was
personal, not only for me but also for my wife.
Q Did
you from that time on seek a way to get out of
2603
A Yes,
I did.
Q What
did you do in an n effort to get out of
A That
was
Q Did
you have any success with that?
A I
did.
Q Where
did you get?
A Well,
first they had in mind for me to go to the northern part of
Q Of
course, you told the Intelligence and Lieutenant Kappe you wanted to do
something for
A Well. I volunteered to do anything in order to, as
I told them rehabilitate myself.
Q Why
did you tell them that?
A Well,
you see, my idea was not to get out of
Q Did
you know of any other way to get out of
A I
didn’t know of any other way with the exception of
2604
getting
into
Q Underground?
A Underground
way, but I couldn’t do that, because I had my folks there. I had five people in
Q Why
would the method you did adopt have been better for your people than going to
A If
I would have gone to
Q But
it you went out legally, it would not affect your folks?
A No.
Q You
went to this sabotage school as a result of your conversation with Lieutenant
Kappe?
A I
did.
Q Let
me ask you one or two things about what they taught these boys at the sabotage
school. Tell us just as accurately as
you can without too much detail. Were
you given any instructions about hurting anybody or harming anybody?
A No;
on the contrary; I stated that in my statement already.
Q I
believe you have covered all that in you statement, have you not?
A I
have.
2605
Q I
shall not go over that again; there is no necessity for that.
Did you on one or two occasions
express a little hostility toward the Gestapo?
A That
is possible.
Q You
tried not to?
A Well,
it was at one occasion officially -- or more or less officially-explained by
Lieutenant Kappe to a small group of boys that I was in camp; and the second
instance, it was explained by George in the room of Herbert Haupt, and I think
Henry was along and some of the boys there, that I was in concentration
camp. Naturally after that several of
the boys came up to me when we were walking, or something, and asked questions,
and it is possible -- I don’t remember it -- but it is very possible that I
made one or another remark.
Q Did
you find after the boys learned that you were in concentration camp that they
asked you questions and seemed to be distrustful of you?
A Well,
of course, I felt that it made a little difference, because at one or other
occasion I was asked, “How come you take an order or you go on a mission like
this, as dangerous as this is, if the Gestapo put you through all this?”
I remember that I told one that I not
consider the Gestapo and
Q Pete,
before you left
A I
did. I communicated with my wife. That is, I wrote a letter to my wife one
hour, or about one hour, before I left the submarine out there.
2606
Q Before
you left
A Before
I left the submarine, before I landed in Amagansett. Question by the President:
Q Pardon
me; what was you last answer? Before you
left where?
A Before
I left the submarine on landing here, in order to land on the beach.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q I
was coming to that. But did you
communicate with her before you left
A Yes,
I did.
Q How
did you communicate with her? Did you go
to see her?
A Before
we left
Q Did
you give her any password or means of identification?
A I
did.
Q When
did you do that?
A I
did that personally when I was home on vacation.
Q Most
of the defendants -- I think all of them -- have testified that they were
disturbed about the gold certificates.
Were you disturbed about them?
A Well
I wouldn’t say I was disturbed; I was more or less disappointed -- disappointed
not for the reason that there would be a possible chance of being caught, but
for the reason
2607
that
I or any one of us could be punished for anything he didn’t have any fault, you
know -- what he didn’t do anything; it wasn’t his fault that he had these gold
certificates; and still, I believe if they would have apprehended him with
those gold certificates and there would have been trouble, they couldn’t do
anything about it. I couldn’t do
anything about it either. It wasn’t, as
I stated -- I want to point that out -- it wasn’t being afraid of being caught,
but it was the idea of being punished for something somebody else was
responsible for, see? That is only one
of the chain of points which proved that Lieutenant Kappe made his own business.
Q I
believe one of the agents has testified that you told about this, but I believe
I will ask you about it anyhow. Before
you left
A May
I explain this?
Q Yes,
you may explain that.
A When
I was in apprehension of the Gestapo, I met three agents of the German
Intelligence which were also arrested, one of Lisbon, one of France, and there
was a no charge against them; they only were kept; and they told me quite a bit
of their experiences. They knew too
much.
Q That
was the reason they were kept?
A That
was the reason that one was kept in chains.
Anyway, when I came to Kappe towards the end of our course, I said to
him -- and I think several of the boys were present at that time -- “Listen” --
Walter Kappe was his name -- “When we come back, no matter if it is successful
or not, we learned quite a
2608
bit
about explosives and using them. Don’t
you think the reaction of the Gestapo would be kind of problematical?”
Then he smiled and explained very
freely, still smiling, “Why, don’t think that you could go home. We put you through concentration camp and
make a good citizen out of you.”
Q So,
he told you that even if you came back, you would have to go back to a
concentration camp?
A Yes,
in order to become a good citizen again.
May I point out at this time that being in concentration camp is not in
Q That
is what they say?
A Yes.
2609
Q You
do not like that education, do you, Pete?
A I
don’t think anyone likes it.
Q Now,
I believe you described what was done when you came over here in some detail,
and I won’t go into that, but did you use your own name?
A I
did.
Q Throughout?
A I
did.
Q Did
you ever use any alias of any kind? Any
other name?
A No. The only think I used when I registered at
the hotel, naturally I couldn’t put down an address, because I didn’t have any,
so I put down a street I used to live in
Q Where
you formerly lived in
A Yes.
Q Pete,
did you have on your person when you came back here any German writing of any
kind?
A Yes.
Q Did
you try to dispose of it?
A No.
Q What
did you have?
A Well,
I had several things. I had several
things. For instance, I had --
Q Do
you recall some of them?
A I
had all the formulas of the explosives, and I am sorry I lost that piece of
paper out in Amagansett; and I had some receipts -- German receipts of the money
I sent -- the last money I sent to my wife just before I left
2610
graph
of my wife with German prints on, I think.
That’s all.
Q Were
they found by the F.B.I.?
A Certainly.
Q I
believe you said you did not attempt to dispose of or conceal any of them?
A That’s
right.
Q Did
you register at the Governor Clinton Hotel in your own name?
A I
did, sir.
Q Did
you make any effort to dispose of the money that you brought?
A No.
Q Did
you keep it right there in your room?
A Yes.
Q When
did you first know definitely that anybody else in your group might be planning
to expose the plan or get out of the plan?
A On
Saturday, 13th -- June 13th.
Q Now,
when was that with relation to your landing?
A That
was in the evening.
Q I
believe you have testified that you did have some conversation, which is
covered in your statement, over in
A Yes.
Q But
that is the first time you knew definitely?
A That
is the first time.
Q Who
was the person you learned then for the fist time might not be willing to go
along with this plan?
A George
Dasch.
2611
Q George Dasch. Where
were you when he gave that information?
A We
were in the Coral Room of the Hotel Governor Clinton, New York.
Q Had
you done anything up to that time about getting away from the others or
reporting anything except what you describe as having done on the beach, which
I won’t go into now? Had you done
anything? Did you mention it to any of
the others?
A No.
Q Why?
A Well,
because when I was in
Q You
refer to dragging your bag across the beach?
A Yes.
Q I
believe you dropped some of the articles before you ever saw the coast Guard?
A Yes.
Q That
is in your statement. Go ahead.
A That
was the second plan I could really consider before I landed in the
Q Did
you have any fear of the Gestapo?
2612
A Yes,
and I still have.
Q Did
you have any fear that what these other boys know about your wanting to get out
and expose it would get to the Gestapo?
Just tell what you thought. I do
not want to lead you.
A I
felt that they did not trust me exactly.
Q You
said that you had a fear of the Gestapo.
I wish you would tell the Commission and all of us what information you
had as to the Gestapo in this country -- what you heard.
A As
I stated already, when I was arrested by the Gestapo I overheard a conversation
between two high leaders of the Gestapo that they had their men in the English
Intelligence Service and also in the Secret Service of the
The other point is that Lieutenant
Kappe told me that they had their men over here, that they knew exactly what
was going on in the offices of the Secret Service, in the F.B.I.
I asked him, “What is the organization
we have to watch out for?” He says, “The
F.B.I.”
He knew that there is a great part --
I think he told me 90 per cent college men -- and I also knew or heard of the
Seibold case, which confirmed my conviction.
Q That
was an agent who came to
A Was
sent over by Heydrich, chief of the Gestapo.
Q And
what happened to him? Did the Gestapo
get him?
A He
was a Gestapo. He was a member of the
Gestapo.
Q The
F.B.I. got him?
A The
F.B.I. got him, and he wasn’t
alone. There
2613
were
about thirty of them.
Q You
had heard of that, had you?
A Sure,
I heard of it, and George Dasch knows it, too, because he studied the records
over there.
Q Now,
you say you were afraid and still are afraid of the Gestapo. Was that the reason you did not do anything
immediately?
A That
was the reason why we did not do it, or why I did not do anything in New York
-- in fact, I told George Dasch on account of that that it would be impossible
and unwise -- foolish -- to get in touch with anyone in New York.
Q But
did he get in touch with someone in
A He
telephoned.
Q Now,
I believe you waited in
A That’s
right.
Q Why
didn’t you report it yourself, instead of waiting for George to go to
A You,
see, there was no reason to hurry, in the first place, in my opinion. I had pointed out a way to find the
explosives, so, first of all, there was no danger -- that is my personal
opinion -- there was no danger to hurry up.
And, second, in the evening of the very day when we landed George Dasch
explained things to me -- that is, we got talking and I knew what it was all
about. Next morning he came clear and
opened out with his idea, said there was no reason for me to do anything. He said he would take care of everything and,
in fact, he did.
Q And
from that time on you relied on George to take
2614
care
of you?
A I
did.
Q Do
you know why he waited from Saturday, when he first told it to you, or Sunday,
when he first called up, until Thursday or Friday to go down to
A He
wasn’t in -- I don’t think he was in a position to go anywhere, to make
anywhere a serious statement.
Q Do
you know why he waited?
A Because
his nerves went -- they were not the way -- he had more or less a nervous
breakdown.
Q You
waited for him to come to
A I
left it up to him. He was more or less
the man in charge.
Q Now,
Pete, I believe George wrote you from
A Yes,
he did.
Q I
believe that letter is in evidence.
A He
wrote one letter before he left.
Q Did
you get a letter written from
A In
Q In
A Yes.
Q Did
you know he had gone to
A I
did.
Q He
told you that?
A Yes.
2615
Q Did
you still remain there at the hotel?
A I
did.
Q Registered
under your own name?
A I
did.
Q Did
you make any effort of any kind to leave?
A No.
Q I
believe your statement shows you were there in the room when they came?
A Yes.
Q When
the F.B.I. came, I believe it has been testified, you gave them a
statement. Did you tell them everything
they asked you?
A Yes.
Q I
believe you gave that statement principally to Mr. Lanman, is that right, who
has been on the stand?
A I
did, yes.
Q Did
you tell him fully, freely, and frankly all the facts?
A Yes.
Q Just
as you have told them here in part?
A Yes.
Q Did
you give them all the information that they asked --
A Yes.
Q continuing
-- about the submarines and everything in the method of operation?
A As
far as I knew, yes.
Q You
gave that the first time they asked you in your first statement?
A Yes.
2616
Q Did
you make any false statements to them at all at the outset?
A No.
Q I
believe Mr. Lanman has said, and it is a fact, is it not, that when you made
that statement you did not know whether they had found the articles on the
beach or not?
A Pardon
me. May I go back to the other question?
Q Yes.
A You
asked me if I held anything back or made a false statement. To a certain extent I did.
Q What
was that?
A Mr.
Lanman asked me if I had any relatives in the United States, and I said no, but
there is a distant relative, some old lady of 75 years, I think she is, old,
and they call it over here second cousin.
Q Well,
is that the only thing in your statement you made to him that was not true?
A That
is the only thing.
Q Pete,
did you know at the time you made that statement whether or not they had found
the various articles on the beach?
A I
did not.
Q Did
you tell them about dragging the sand?
A Yes,
I did.
Q Did
you tell them about leaving the cigarettes there?
A I
did.
Q Did
you tell them about the Coast Guardsman?
A Yes;
everything, I told them.
Q You
told them about these articles that they later
2617
found
there?
A Yes.
Q Let
me ask you one or two questions about these other boys. Tell me what your opinion as of Heinck’s
ability to carry out any plan without some direction from somebody. What do you think of Heinck?
A I
do not know how far my opinion is of any importance, but I do not believe that
Heinck -- in fact, he refused, for instance, to get the boxes.
The Attorney General. I do not think it is proper to have one
prisoner comment on the other.
Colonel Royall. I won’t do it if there is any objection.
The Attorney General. I do not think it is right.
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q What
have you observed of Heinck? Do not
answer this question until the Attorney General objects, because I think it is
competent to ask you that, but he may want to object. What do you think of Heinck? What did you observe of Heinck -- I will put
it that way -- as to initiative and his ability to go ahead without direction
from anybody?
A None. He did not have any initiative.
Q Is
there any other single member of this group you have observed that about?
A Well,
the second group I can’t talk -- I do not know anything.
Q You
did not have an opportunity to observe Thiel, did you?
A No,
not after we landed, you see.
Q Pete,
your statement is full and complete. I
do not
2618
want
to repeat anything, but is there anything that I have not asked you about that,
even though it is contained in your statement, you want to say anything about
before I turn you over for cross-examination?
A No,
sir, I can’t think of anything right now.
Q And
you still do not want to correct your statement as you now recollect it?
A I
can’t correct it, because it is true.
Q There
is one thing I want to ask you about. I
believe somewhere in your statement some information was given about some other
submarine probably landing in this country.
That is not clear to me. You told
the F.B.I. about some submarine landing
somewhere on the coast?
A Yes. There was a conversation I overheard at
Q Now,
why didn’t you report that to the F.B.I. when you got here, so that they could
apprehend them? Did you have any reason
for that?
A I
did not think of that. I remembered that
when I talked to MR. Lanman. I did not
think of that before.
Q You
did not think of that before. You were
thinking principally, or you were thinking in part, or getting to
A That’s
right. Colonel Royall. That is all we care to ask him on direct
examination, unless he has something to add.
2619
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Pete,
you joined the Nazi Party in 1923 and remained until 1935?
A Yes. Pardon me, sir, I wanted to correct
that. It is not true. I joined the Nazi Party in February 1923 --
Q In
A Yes,
and remained in the Nazi Party until November, 1923, when I took part in the
original Boer Hill Putsch, but after this, you see the party did not exist any
more. The police prohibited the
party. So at the same time, naturally,
my membership expired, because the police closed it up, you might say, and the
party was recreated in 1925. So in fact
I only did belong to the party from 1923, February, until November, when it was
prohibited.
Q When
did you join again?
A 1933,
when I came back.
Q When
you came back to
A Yes.
2620
Q Have
you been a member ever since then? You
are a member now?
A Yes. I was officially dismissed from the party
because of my difficulty with the Gestapo, and at the same time I had to sign a
written protest.
Q The
written protest, as I remember, was so that you cold still be under the
regulation of the Party?
A Yes.
Q Did
the Party have a uniform?
A Yes.
Q Did
you wear it?
A Yes.
Q When
you referred to the epaulets and the insignia which the Gestapo took off you,
were they the epaulets and the insignia of the Nazi Party?
A No,
sir.
Q Were
they the epaulets of your uniform as a soldier?
A No;
it is different.
Q What
were they?
A You
see, due to the fact that I was a member of this original organization I had
the highest decoration of the Party, and when I had trouble with the Gestapo
they took this decoration away. At the
same time they prohibited the wearing of two other decorations I had, which had
nothing to do with the party, but they were decorations for bravery in
battle. They had nothing to do with the
party at all; but still it was prohibited.
Q What
were the epaulets?
A My
party uniform.
2621
Q The
Nazi Uniform?
A Yes,
sir.
Q I
was not sure what you meant. The other
seven defendants were all at the camp or school for sabotage, were they not?
A Yes.
Q Had
you know Walter Kappe before you saw him over there?
A Before
I saw him at school, you mean?
Q Yes.
A Yes;
I saw him when I went up to headquarters.
Q Had
you know him in this country?
A No,
sir.
Q Had
you heard of him when you were in
A No,
sir.
Q Never
heard of him before you went over?
A No.
Q Did
Kappe say anything about any of his friends in
A Then
do you mean?
Q Any
time did he ever talk about any friends he had in the
A No,
sir.
Q He
did not give you any names of friends he had here?
A No. On the contrary, he told me -- in fact, he
told all of us, and I heard it said -- that we should never mention his name
over here.
Q Did
he say whether he was coming over here or not?
2622
A Yes.
Q Did
he tell you that?
A Yes.
Q Do
you know why he gave you that information?
A No.
Q Were
you to meet him when he came over?
A No. I was to put up an ad., advertising in the
paper. I can’t express myself in
English.
Q You
were to put an advertisement in the newspaper; is that right?
A Yes,
sir.
Q In
the
A Yes.
Q When
were you to put it in?
A May
I explain that? Reinhold Barth wanted to
come over, and Kappe said in a more or less general way that he wanted to come
over late, but they did not state when.
Q Did
Reinhold Barth state when he, Barth, wanted to come?
A Yes. He told me personally that he wanted to come
over in September.
Q September,
1942, of course?
A Yes.
Q Who
was Barth going to bring with him? Was
he going to bring Swenson?
A No.
Q Who
was he going to bring?
A He
didn’t tell me that he wanted to bring anyone, but he mentioned that he wanted
to bring another group with him.
2623
Q Was
he coming from
A He
didn’t say that.
Q What
was the arrangement as to the advertisement?
A Reinhold
Barth told me that I should, on the first and the 15th.
Q The
first and the 15th of what?
A Of
the month of August, as soon as I had established a front, my identity in
Q What
was that ad supposed to show?
A That
would mean that we established this front, that we built up an identity.
Q Was
that to be a communication to Barth and Kappe that you had established your
front in
A Yes.
Q How
was it to be worded?
A There
was nothing said about that.
Q Was
any arrangement made by you to put any ad?
In if you had not been able to establish a front.
A No.
Q Or
if you had gotten into trouble or were under suspicion?
A No.
Q What
was to be put in on the 15th?
A The
same thing.
Q Either
the first or the 15th?
A Yes.
Q Was
it just one advertisement that you were to put in, or were there going to be
several advertisements?
A It
was just an advertisement.
2624
Q One
advertisement?
A No,
not one advertisement. I suppose I
should run it regularly.
Q For
how long?
A It
was not told me.
Q Was
it to be a week or two weeks? Did you
get any impression as to the length of time?
A I
suppose I should have put it in there repeatedly.
Q For
how long; do you remember?
A I
don’t know for how long.
Q How
were they going to get the Tribune in
A They
had quite a number of American papers.
Q Do
you know how they were going to get the Tribune in August?
A I
don’t know.
Q Was
anything said about radio?
A No,
sir.
Q Nothing
was said about that?
A No,
sir.
Q Who
was to put the advertisement in? Were
you put it in, you personally?
A Yes.
Q How
about for the other group?
A I
don’t know anything about the other group.
Q That
advertisement meant that your group had established a front?
A No,
that I had established a front.
Q What
kind of a front did he mean?
A That
I had established a business.
2625
Q Your
orders were to establish some sort of business?
A As
a commercial artist, and the place where I lived.
Q In
A Yes.
Q So
your orders were to establish in
A Yes.
Q Was
that from Kappe or Barth?
A That
was Barth.
Q You
each had a personality story, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Some
of these boys said, I think, that they were given other names, false names?
A Yes.
Q And
your instructions were that you were to use your own names?
A That
was not my instruction.
Q It
was understood that you were to use your own name?
A That
was my decision.
Q Was
it approved by Kappe?
A It
was finally approved, sir.
Q What
reasons did you have for using your own name?
A I
told him that I had papers.
Q A
passport?
A The
passport I didn’t bring along at all.
Q You
had a passport at the camp?
A No;
I had a passport when I left the
Q I
understand that; but did you have it at the camp?
A No,
sir.
The Attorney General. I will ask the reporter to mark
2626
this
document for identification.
(A
citizenship document of Burger
was marked P-266 for identification.)
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Is
this P-266 your passport?
A No,
sir.
Q Oh. I beg your pardon. That is your citizenship paper. You had that with you?
A Yes;
I had it with me.
Q And
the plan was finally approved that you were going to use your own name?
A Yes,
sir.
Q On
account of this citizenship paper?
A Not
on account of it, but because I refused to take any other name.
Q I
understand that; but did you not say that since you had a citizenship paper
here, it would be more convenient to use your name?
A I
told him that.
Q What
did they do?
A They
good out the stamp where it said “Passport issued.”
Q The
stamp said “Passport issued”?
A Yes.
Q Why
did they take that out?
A Because
I was supposed to tell anyone who asked me that I did not leave the Untied
States.
Q And
this red ink indicating is where that stamp was erased?
A I
imagine so; yes.
2627
(Citizenship
paper of Burger,
previously
marked P-266 for
identification,
was received
in evidence)
Q So
that the final plan that you and Kappe agreed to was that you were to use this
citizenship paper which had been altered so as to show that you never went out
of the
A Yes.
Q And
you think you were to use your own name?
A Yes,
sir.
Q We
have heard a great deal about this secret writing. Did Kappe talk to you about that at all?
A He
talked to all of us about the secret writing.
Q What
did he say it was to be used for?
A For
communication between ourselves in the
Q Did
he say what kind of communication?
A He
said, first of all -- he told us that we should not write unless absolutely
necessary, and he said if we should write, we should only write where to meet.
Q What
about the names and addresses on the handkerchiefs? What did Kappe say about that?
A He
didn’t say anything to us, or to the members of the groups. In fact, I myself knew about the handkerchief
on Sunday after we landed here.
Q Who
told you about it?
A George.
Q What
did George say to you about it?
A He
told me that his handkerchief was important, that he had some important notes
on it.
2628
Q Did
he say what the names were to be used for?
A He
didn’t tell me that there were names on.
In fact, I was asked about it and I explained that there was a
handkerchief with some writing on, but I said that I did not know if the
handkerchiefs contained formulas for the explosives what it was.
Q Did
George show it to you?
A No.
Q He
told you about it?
A Yes.
Q Did
you not ask him what it was to be used for?
A No,
sir.
Q What,
exactly, did he say? He said it was an
important handkerchief and then did not say any more?
A He
told me on Sunday morning that besides his statement he had to make in
Q But
you did not ask him anything about it then?
A No,
sir.
Q Now,
Pete, --
A Pardon
me. He told me that this handkerchief
would be important because it contained secret writing.
Q But
you did not ask him anything when he said that?
A I
was afraid that he would explain that.
It was very hard to ask him anything.
Q And
you did not ask him?
A I
didn’t ask him. I didn’t have a chance.
Q When
you got back to
2629
A After
I came out of the Gestapo.
Q You
were doing some kind of military police work?
A No. I was in the prisoners’ camp as a guard, as a
soldier.
Q You
were a guard of prisoners in the camp?
A Yes.
Q What
kind of an oath did you take? Did you
take any oath when you went into the army?
A Yes.
Q What
oath was it, if you can repeat the oath?
A Allegiance
to Adolf Hitler as the highest commander of the army.
Q It
was an oath of allegiance to Hitler?
A As
the highest commander.
Q Did
you take any other oath when you were in
A To
what camp -- to the school?
Q To
the sabotage camp.
A No,
sir.
Q You
did not take any oath then?
A No,
sir.
Q You
signed a contract?
A Yes.
Q Did
you see it? Did you see what was in it?
A Yes.
Q What
did the contract say?
A The
contract consisted of, I believe, three typewritten pages, and one page
consisted of all the penalties which came due when the man who signs the
contract ever says anything about it.
That consisted of one page.
2630
Q Did
the contract say what you were doing?
A No,
sir.
Q Did
it say whether you belonged to the army?
A Yes. It was a contract given by the High command
of the German Army.
Q The
contracts were all alike, were they?
A No;
they were all different.
Q You
are speaking now if your own contract?
A Yes.
Q You
do not know what Haupt’s contract was, do you?
A No,
sir.
Q Do
you know anything about any of the other contracts?
A No,
sir. I only know what they have told me.
Q Your
contract was with the high command?
A Yes,
sir, absolutely, sir.
Q Do
you remember how the uniforms were issued to you?
A Yes;
I remember.
Q Where
did you get yours?
A In
Q Were
those navy uniforms?
A Fatigue
uniforms.
Q You
went down there. Did you have to give an
y receipt for them?
A No.
Q They
just issued them to you?
A Yes.
Q What
did they issue -- pants, cap, shoes and socks?
A Shoes,
socks, pants, coat and cap -- no belts.
2631
Q Like
the ones you saw in court here?
A Yes;
but no belts.
Q When
you came over on the submarine were you under the command of the captain of the
submarine?
A Yes.
Q And
all the other boys were under his command?
A Yes.
Q He
was a member of the navy?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Now,
Pete, there was some talk about Quirin having said something to you about being
nervous as to the leadership of the group.
Do you remember that?
A As
to George Dasch being the leader; yes.
Q What
did Quirin say?
A I
will have to explain that. It goes
farther back. The actions of George
Dasch were so that nobody or no one particular group had confidence in him.
Q I
do not understand that. Colonel
Royall. Let him answer the
question.
The Witness. May I explain?
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Yes.
A It
was a reaction to George Dasch’s behavior.
Quirin and also Heinck and I myself, we didn’t know what it was all
about; and in the conversation --
Q (Interposing)
I do not understand when you said you did not know what it was all about.
A We
did not know what he was up to; we didn’t understand him. My personal idea is if a small group of
soldiers
2632
was
to go to do a certain job or on a certain mission, that they have to be acting
together like soldiers. But it was not
in our case. It was a
misunderstanding. There was no
harmony. There was watching each
other. It was no good; the spirit was
not there. See? That was the reason why Quirin, as the second
leader, had the perfect right, and his duty was to watch that very closely, and
for that reason his idea and his wish came that if George Dasch kept on the way
he did, and if he disappeared a couple of days he would take over command. I think that is what you are referring to.
Q Quite
properly carrying out orders?
A Absolutely.
Q And
were the other members all suspicious of Dasch?
A I
am speaking now, sir, of our group.
Q I
know. But the other two boys were
suspicious of Dasch, were they?
A Yes. I too.
Q Suspicious
because you did not know whether he would carry out orders or not?
A Suspicious
because he acted queerly.
Q You
said you had no confidence in him. You
meant you had no confidence that he would do what he was told to do?
A I
am speaking now of the impression we had as the three members of the group, and
he was supposed to be the leader.
Q But
when you said you had no confidence --
A I
meant the feeling of the group as an entire group under the command of one man,
there was no confidence.
Q What
were you suspicious of -- that Dasch would not carry out his orders as he had
been told to do?
2933
A I
would not go so far as to say that. I
did not know if he wanted to carry out the orders. I only knew -- and we were talking about it
repeatedly -- that it was very funny with him, that he never did the expected
thing.
Q What
was the lack of confidence? Was it
because you thought he might not carry his orders out?
A In
fact, our first opinion was, Quirin, Heinck and myself -- our first opinion was
that he would get away with the money.
It was $80,000.
Q Was
it not true that you and Quirin thought he might not carry out his orders?
A More
or less; yes.
2634
Q When
did you have that opinion?
A I
had it in
Q In
A Yes.
Q You
were not suspicious of the other two, were you?
A No.
Q Pete,
you spoke, I think, of trying to get out of
A I
said it would have been a possible way to get out.
Q Did
you try to make some arrangements to get to
A No.
Q What
effort did you make to get out of
A Well,
as I told you., I wanted to find a legal way of getting out of Germany, and the
legal way to get anywhere in Europe is either with the party or with the army;
there is no other way.
Q Let
us see. How long were you in
A From
1933 -- July or June; I think July -- until now.
Q When
did you first decide you wanted to get out of
A On
the last of July, 1934.
Q 1934?
A Yes.
Q What
effort, except to join this sabotage gang, did you make to get our from
A I
tried to get into the Foreign Department.
I
2635
studied
or finished my education in the
Q Well,
were there any other efforts except what you have just described?
A I
wanted to get my American passport straight, and I talked to Miss Schultz -- I
mentioned her in the statement -- about it, with no success, until I had
finally the chance of coming over here.
Q Those
were all the efforts you made since 1934?
A Well,
they were continuous efforts to get out.
You see, at that time I had a very -- I had more chances. I mean at that time
Q Were
you an American in 1934?
A An
American?
Q Yes.
A I
think so.
Q Americans
were getting in and out of
A Yes.
Q In
1935?
A But
at the same time I was a member of the Party, and I was a former aide-de-camp
to Roehm. I could at no time either go
to an American consulate or have any connections personally; therefore, Miss
Schultz was kind enough to get in
2636
touch
with some people, but it wasn’t no good.
Q Did
you ever got to an American consulate?
A I
could not.
Q You
did not?
A I
could not.
Q But
you did not?
A Well,
I did not and could not, sir; I couldn’t afford to.
Q That
may be true, but I just want to be sure you did not.
A No,
I did not.
Q How
many Americans were getting into and out of
A I
don’t know; I suppose, especially during the Olympic games, thousands of them.
Q Were
you a loyal German when you were in
A In
1935? In 1935, sir, thousands of my
friends and comrades were shot.
Q Were
you a loyal German in 1935?
A I
say no.
Q I
think you have said that your first reason to get out was political.
A Yes.
Q Until
this mistreatment of your wife?
A Yes.
Q Then
the added reason became personal as well?
A Yes.
Q I
did not understand what you said about this
2637
possibility
of going to
A It
was the first proposition given to me by Lieutenant Kappe.
Q Did
Kappe suggest it?
A Yes.
Q Just
what is it? I did not quite get that
clearly.
A There
was a time when American technicians were employed by the English Government or
by some English industrial plants in the northern part of
Q You
did not hear any more about it?
A No,
sir.
Q I
think I understand pretty clearly you situation. It was that you could not get out illegally
because there would be reprisals?
A What
do you mean by reprisals?
Q I
mean that they would hurt your family in
A Yes,
that is right.
Q If
you gave yourself up over here on a mission, the same thing would happen, I
presume?
A I
don’t understand you, sir.
Q Suppose
you had surrendered yourself. If you had
surrendered yourself to the F.B.I. and the news had got back to
A Interposing
You mean now?
Q I
am talking about your state of mind in
A Yes.
Q You
came over here and never meant to go through
2638
with
this?
A Yes,
that is right.
Q If
that news had got back to
A I
know it, but that news never gets back to
Q This
Government is full of Gestapo agents over here?
A I
don’t know, sir.
Q You
were told it was?
A I
am not talking about the Government; I was only told that there might be, and
that there are some agents working for the Gestapo, or members of the Gestapo,
even in the F.B.I. That was a
conversation I overheard.
Q Well,
did you feel pretty certain when you left Germany that there was no chance of
the news getting back to Germany after you had given yourself up?
A I
don’t understand.
The Attorney General. Will you please repeat the question, Mr. Reporter?
The Reporter (reading):
“Question. Well, did you feel pretty certain when you
left Germany that there was no chance of the news getting back to Germany after
you had given yourself up?”
The Witness. No, I don’t think there is a chance.
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q When
you were in
2639
thought
that that news would never get back to
A When
I was in Germany, sir, I didn’t think that anything would happen over here,
with the exception of getting first to the United States, see? And secondly, to make it impossible to use
the explosives, and third, it would have a very long time to prepare, by all
these formulas, now explosives.
Q But
your main purpose was to protect your family, wasn’t it, otherwise you would
have got out illegally?
A Well,
there was no chance to get out legally.
Q Illegally,
I said.
A Illegally? I am not going illegally anywhere.
Q That
was to protect your family, was it not?
A Certainly.
Q So,
that was your main consideration, was it not?
A It
was. It wasn’t only my main
consideration. I don’t see why I should
go out illegally if there is some way to get out legally.
Q If
you could have got out illegally and your family would have been protected, you
would not have objected, would you?
A That
is not combination; that is impossible.
Q Why?
A Because
it is impossible; you can’t get out of
Q Then,
your reason for getting out legally was to protect your family?
A Well,
partly.
Q Was
there any other reason?
2640
A No.
Q Tell
me a little about the landing on the beach.
It was very dark and foggy, was it not?
A I
still do not say -- Pardon me, sir; I have to come back to that. It was not the only reason to get out.
Q All
right; what was it?
A If
I had a chance and there were a chance to get out illegally -- out of
Q What
was your reason?
A Because
a man doesn’t go out illegally anywhere.
Q Do
you mean you would have hesitated to go over the Swiss Border and sneak out of
A Not
wrong. I wouldn’t say wrong.
Q Why
would you not have done it, then? Do you
think a man does not do that?
A That
is right.
Q Did
you think that would have been much worse than coming over with a sabotage
crowd?
A That
has nothing to do at all, because I came over here legally, on a German order,
see? I don’t have any reason to sneak
away, have I?
Q The
only reason, the real reason, is it not true, why you did not want to try to
get out over the Swiss Border was the Gestapo?
A That
was one of the reasons. I told you it
would have meant the arrest of my people.
Q So
it always comes back to that.
2641
A If
I would have not had any people over there, I still would have not sneaked out.
Q Why?
A Because
I don’t have to. Because why should
I? I have to find a legal way; that is
what I did.
Q You
would rather come out legally in a submarine rather than go out illegally over
the Swiss Border?
A Pardon
me; I don’t understand.
The Attorney General. Will you please repeat the question?
The Reporter (reading):
“Question. You would rather come out legally in a
submarine than go out illegally over the Swiss Border?”
Question by the Attorney General:
Q Pete,
I want to come back to the early morning that you landed in Amagansett. The morning you landed in Amagansett it was
quite dark and foggy, was it not?
A Yes
Q You
had certain objects and put them along the beach?
A That
is right.
Q One
was a half empty bottle of schnapps?
A That’s
right.
Q Where
did you put that?
A I
stuck it in the sand, sir.
Q Standing
up?
A Standing
up.
Q Buried
in the sand?
2642
A Not
buried, but just stuck in.
Q The
other was a half smoked package of cigarettes?
A Yes.
Q You
threw them somewhere?
A A
white silver package of box like this.
Q You
put that in the sand?
A
Lay it on the sand.
Q How
far from the buried boxes?
A Very
far from the spot where the boxes were buried last.
Q How
far?
A I
can’t say sat that -- how far.
Q How
far away was the bottle? Do you know
that?
A Well,
if you follow our way from the water edge, part of the sand beach, you would
find the box of cigarettes right -- well, at some distance from the water
edge. Then small pieces came -- small
pieces of wooden fence, and close to it was the bottle. Then it goes up the bank, and on top of the
bank was the raincoat. Then you could
follow all small sand pieces up a sand hill going land inwards along the bank
to a sand hole depression, where finally the boxes were.
Q Is
the bank like a sand dune?
A No,
it was weeds, wood, and stuff.
Q Was
it high or low tide when you landed?
A I
don’t know
Q Were
the cigarettes above the high water mark?
A I
don’t know what the water mark was.
Q You
did not notice how high the mark of the waves was up on the beach?
2643
A The
water did not reach the box when I was there.
Q How
far from the boxes?
A Well,
I am talking about the cigarette box now.
Q How
far was the cigarette box?
A From
the explosives of the water?
Q From
the water?
A I
don’t know that.
Q A
hundred yards?
A Oh,
no.
Q Fifty
feet?
A No,
no
Q Not
that far?
A Not
that far.
Q Ten
Feet?
A It
might be less that ten feet, I think.
Q You
don’t know whether it was high or low water at that time?
A I
don’t remember that.
Q Let
us see what the objects were.
A May
I explain that to you, sir?
Q Surely.
A I
was very excited, naturally, in a state of mind where I didn’t recognize
anything. It was foggy. I was thoroughly wet, because three of four
big waves hit me, and I just ran out of this boat, having the suitcase, and
then taking the cigarette box out of my pocket and putting it, as I remember,
flat on the sand. I cannot recall how
far it was from the water edge.
Q Let
us see. There were cigarettes, a bottle,
and the
2644
coat. What other objects did you put down?
A Well,
small pieces of clothing.
Q How
big were the pieces of clothing? What
kind of clothing was it?
A I
suppose bathing trunks and the vest -- folded vest.
Q You
did put those down on the beach?
A No,
not on the beach; up on the bank.
Q Near
the boxes?
A Well,
on the way towards the boxes; towards this sand depression.
Q How
many objects were there? Five or six?
A I
don’t remember.
Q You
don’t remember how many there were?
A No, I don’t remember
Q You
put those there so that, you thought, whoever was looking for the boxes could
follow each one, and they would lead to the boxes; is that right?
A I
left tracks by throwing different items down and left a way marked.
Q Clearly
marked?
A Yes.
Q Clearly?
A I
suppose.
Q Clear
enough. Would it not have been a little
more simple and a little more certain if you have called up a policeman and
told him where the boxes were?
A On
the beach?
Q Anywhere.
A That
was done, sir, after we left the boxes, before
2645
the
cigarette box was put down and my cap was thrown somewhere.
Q Why
did you not go up to the Coast Guard and report it?
A Well,
may I explain to you, sir?
Q Surely.
A When
we landed and we jumped out of his boat, in order to make it real fast and the
boat can go back to the submarine again, I tried to explain to you that I put
down three different items before even the Coast Guard man stepped up; and
before the Coast Guard man came, I did not know that there was a Coast Guard
station around or where we were. It was
so foggy that we did not, in fact, see from the water edge the bank or houses or
anything.
Q Had
you decided before to report it at all?
A I
didn’t think of anything but getting away from that beach.
Q When
you cam over on the submarine, did you decide to report it?
A I
decided that I had, as I told you -- that I had to make it impossible to have
the explosives used by the members of my group.
Q Did
you decide while coming over on the submarine that you were going to report it?
A I
decided to make our plan or our orders to fail.
Q I
understand that, but you have not answered the question.
A Well,
it is pretty hard for me to answer the question.
Q Did
you decide on the submarine that you were going to report this to the proper
officials?
2646
A I
did.
Q When
did you decide that?
A Well,
I don’t think anyone could answer that question, sir.
Q But
you let a week go by in all before any report was made, did you not?
A As
soon as -- on the very evening of the day of the landing, George Dasch took the
whole business over on his hands, and I was very happy to hear him explain why,
and then his ideas. He talked very long
on that.
Q Did
you trust Dasch?
A I
did.
Q You
have confidence in him?
A Absolutely.
Q For
some purpose but not for others?
A Well,
I don’t understand your question.
Q You
had confidence in him for some purposes, but you did not have confidence in him
for other purposes?
A I
don’t know what you man by “other purposes.”
Q I
though a little while ago you said you did not have much confidence in Dasch.
A A
little while ago -- Pardon me, sir; I have to explain to you. A little while before, I was talking about
the feeling of our group as subordinates of the leader.
Q Were
you not afraid that he would steel some of the money?
A When? Saturday or Sunday?
Q At
any time.
A Not
after we had our talk.
2647
Q But
before you had your talk?
A Before,
not only I but we all had the feeling anyone has of a man he doesn’t know very
well and acts funny and carries a suitcase with $82,000.
Q So,
as soon as you had your talk, your confidence was completely restored?
A After
that it was restored -- Yes, that is right.
Q You
had never suspected Dasch of giving this away before you had your talk with
him, had you?
A No. Of giving it away? No, but I also didn’t expect him to carry out
the orders which were given to him over there.
Q When
did you first cone to that conclusion?
A I
cam to that conclusion, as I tried to explain before, all along during the
school.
Q You
never thought Dasch would carry out the orders?
A I
mentioned that before.
Q I
say, you never thought he would carry them out?
A I
tried to explain; I am sorry I can’t express myself. It’s very hard to explain to you that his
actions were not so -- as the actions of a leader would be of a group of
soldiers who are just -- before action.
Understand what I mean?
2648
Q He
was not very soldierly?
A That’s
not the point. That is one point. You may put it that way.
Q How
about the other boys?
A You
see, I can’t explain that very good. I
am a soldier, and he is not.
Q I
see that.
A But,
positively, his actions were not as a soldier and they were not as a saboteur,
or whatever you call it.
Q How
about the other boys? What were their
actions?
A He
took up all the time of our consideration.
There was no chance to consider anyone else. That is the major fact. It is really not to laugh; it is a fact,
because, you see -- May I explain a little further?
Q Yes.
A Because
if you should follow our way from Berlin to the school, to the different
industrial plants, from Berlin to Paris, From Paris to Lorient, and from
Lorient finally on the submarine to the coast of the United States, and there
was not one order given by our superiors he would not do the opposition -- you
know, the contrary -- not the order.
There wasn’t one place where he did anything that wasn’t wrong in the
eyes of people -- you know what I mean.
Even on the train he lost his papers and made a lot of trouble for
anyone connected. So naturally the
feeling wasn’t very high for competent leader of an undertaking like this.
Q Now,
Pete, let us go back to this question of the gold certificates. I was not quite clear about that. You said it did not worry you that you might
be arrested. As I understand
2649
it,
what worried you was that you might be picked up for having gold
certificates? Well, I do not quite
understand what your explanation was.
What was your state of mind when you found there gold certificates in
the belts?
A My
state of mind was, here is another proof that Mr. Kappe and all the officials
over there don’t give a dam for the tools they use, only for the special
purpose they have in mind. What happens
to the guy who does it doesn’t make any difference.
Q Were
you afraid that the gold certificates would get you in trouble?
A I
wasn’t afraid for myself. I didn’t even
consider myself. I only considered the
effect, see.
If you tried to get a picture of the
whole situation, that there were eight men living on two submarines to a
foreign country, on a mission like we had, and they give a man money which
immediately gets him into trouble --
Q What
did the gesture mean? You did not finish
your sentence.
A I
am quite sure you understand what I mean.
Q It
is bad business to do that kind of thing?
A It
is not only bad business. It is a dirty
trick. And besides that, not only do
they give you the wrong money; they don’t give you as much as they tell you is
in the belt. In this country you call
people like that chiseler.
Q I
think I would call them worse that that.
Did you think they double-crossed you when they put gold certificates
in?
2650
A I
know that, because they made money on that.
They made money on the very fact that they sent us on a dangerous
mission. They even made money when we
were back there yet.
Q And
you all expected to get more money?
A I
did not expect more money. It was not of
any importance for me how much money I had, but it was important for me that if
they say in the belt there is $4,000, that there really are $4,000, see. It means that I must have the feeling I can
depend on my superiors as a soldier. If
I have a proof that I cannot depend on them, that they are lying to me, that
there is a carelessness which means punishment for me and trouble for all of
us, I can’t respect them and I can’t take them as a leader.
Q Pete,
did you have a feeling that they were all right up to that gold certificate
episode? You depended on them up to
then?
A I
did not depend on them at all.
Q You
had a feeling then you could depend on them as a soldier up until the gold
certificates were found?
A No. On whom do you mean?
Q On
your superiors, as a soldier.
A No,
I did not have that feeling, and, in fact, I did not have that feeling from the
very first day when I got there.
Q Well,
then, the gold certificates episode did not really surprise you very much, did
it? It did not bother you much, did it?
A It
bothered me -- well, I don’t know what you mean by that question.
Q Well,
you said you had not depended on them at all,
2651
so
when you got these gold certificates, which was so careless, I suppose that is
what you suspected all along?
A Well,
it convinced me that all along I was not wrong in my opinion.
The Attorney General. Perhaps it would be fair to the witness --
Colonel Royall. It is all right. Either way you want to do.
Are you getting along alright,
Pete? Are you tired?
The Attorney General. Does the Commission wish to tale a recess?
The President. The session is opened.
Colonel Munson. The witness is reminded he is still under
oath.
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Pete,
were you told, shortly before leaving
A I
did not get this question.
(The last question was read by the
reporter)
A Not
in
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q In
the school you were told that every member of both groups had been assigned a
number in the German Army?
2652
A I
don’t know about numbers, but they were assigned to the German Army.
Q They
were all assigned to the German Army before coming over?
A Yes.
Q All
of them?
A I
imagine so, sir.
Q Who
told you that?
A Kappe.
Colonel Royall. I believe the other defendants should move to
strike out what Kappe says, as far as concerns them. I did not know the question was going to be
in that form. Of course, as far as this
defendant is concerned, there is no objection; but as far as what Kappe told
this defendant about the others is concerned, I think that is incompetent.
The Attorney General. The whole proceeding, ever since these
defendants have been cross-examined, has been permitting to say what Kappe told
them right along. This objection seems
to me to come a little late.
Colonel Royall. I do not mind disclosing just what I have in
mind about it. I think the Attorney
General knows.
One or possible more of the defendants
have testified that they were not given any numbers or were not members of the
Army; and it seems to me, as a practical and reasonable matter, it is a little
unfair to contradict them by what somebody told this witness.
I am confident that this witness is
telling the truth if he says someone told him that, and if this witness had
known it
2653
of
his own knowledge there would not be any objection to it; but it does seem to
me that the testimony as to what Kappe told the defendant Burger in
Now, it is true that we have asked
these witnesses their conversations with Kappe.
Both sides have done that. But
that is where the conversation related to the defendant who was on the stand,
and I do not think there has been any effort to prove facts against the other
defendants by what somebody said. I ask
that that be stricken.
The Attorney General. I consider this exceedingly evidence. The evidence is that the man in charge of
these two groups had stated specifically that they had been assigned to the
German Army, to units on the German Army.
I think that is important evidence.
Leaving aside the hearsay rule, it seems to me it would convince any
reasonable man that they had been assigned to those units. This is very important evidence for the
prosecution. There fore I ask that it be
not struck out.
The President. Have you any remarks, Colonel Ristine?
Colonel Ristine. I make the same motion with respect to the
defendant Dasch. I am sure that Dasch
testified that he was a member of the armed forces, and, of course, I take the
position that it could not be proven that he was a member of the armed forces
by what some other witness testified about some statement that somebody else
made to him.
2654
The Attorney General. There is one technical consideration that is
important to my argument, and that is this.
Charge 4 of the changes provides this specification:
“In that during the year 1942 the
prisoners,” and then their names are mentioned, “being enemies of the United
States and acting for and on behalf of the German Reich, and belligerent
nation, did plot, plan, and conspire with each other, with the German Reich” --
in other words, the conspiracy is with the Reich as well as among themselves.
Now, Kappe was an agent of the German
Reich, and therefore the charge is that Kappe, or the Reich represented Kappe,
was part of that very conspiracy.
Obviously, that confession of one of
the conspirators was made right in the beginning of the conspiracy. So that it seems to me, under the most highly
technical rules, that that admission of the Reich, made by its agent, is
obviously admissible against all of the other conspirators, because then
clearly there was no intimation that the conspiracy had finished. It was right in being at that very moment.
Therefore, from even a technical rule
of the admission of evidence applicable to the courts, which we have never
conceded in applicable to this Commission, it seems to me that the statement of
confession of Kappe was clearly chargeable against these co-conspirators.
Colonel Royall. I just wanted to add this. The fact that it is material for the
prosecution to prove it is all the more reason why it ought to not be proven by
hearsay.
Of course, there is not objection from
the defendant Burger,
2655
because
he admits he was in the German Army and states the full facts about it. He is not objecting to it. But we are in a position where we represent
other defendants, and this was stated not when they were present, but it was
stated by a third person.
We move again that it be stricken as
to the other defendants.
The President. Close the Commission.
Would it be more convenient, from the
householding point of view and other reasons of both sided, that we should take
our
The Attorney General. I think, from household and other
arrangements, that if you took it now it would be a little more convenient from
our point of view.
Colonel Royall. That is entirely satisfactory, and I suggest
that we have as short a recess as the Commission finds convenient, because
there is not very much more testimony in this matter from the standpoint of the
defendants.
The President. Is
The Attorney General. Absolutely.
Colonel Royall. Yes.
(Thereupon, at
2656
AFTER RECESS
(The
commission reconvened at
The President. The Commission is open. Come to order, please.
Colonel Munson. The full personnel of the Commission, the
eight defendants, and the reporter are present.
The full Personnel of the prosecution except Colonel Treusch and MR.
Rowe is present. The full personnel of
the defense except Captain Bruton and Captain Hummell is present.
The President. The motion of the defense to strike is not
sustained. Proceed Please.
ERNEST PETER BURGER,
the
witness on the stand at the time of the
Colonel Munson. You are reminded that you are still under
oath.
The Witness. Yes, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Resumed
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Pete,
there are a few more questions I want to ask you. I think you said that Dasch had been studying
some records over in
A Yes.
Q What
records were they? Do you know?
A He
told me about the records of the Seibold case.
Q Did
he have other records he was studying?
A I
don’t know, sir.
2657
Q Did
he have the records of any individuals who might be used for sabotage?
A I
don’t know, sir.
Q Was
he pretty intimate with Kappe?
A He
was the leader of the group.
Q Was
he intimate with Kappe?
A Without
question
Q Did
he help Kappe organize this school, would you say?
A Well,
not the school, sir; the school as such was organized long before Kappe.
Q How
long had the school been going?
A I
don’t know.
Q You
don’t know if they had sent anybody else there before?
A Well,
I do know that they sent someone else and other groups to other countries.
Q Do
you know where they sent them?
A Well,
I know that before we started the course, there were Indians from
Q Do
you mean Indians had been trained from
A Yes.
Q You
do not know any of their names, I suppose?
A No,
sir.
Q Were
they sent out?
A I
imagine so, sir.
Q You
don’t know, though?
A Well,
they weren’t there any more when we came.
Q You
did not hear any more about whether they were
2658
sent
out?
A No,
I didn’t hear about it.
Q Did
you hear that any groups had been sent out?
A I
did hear that for quite a length of time continuously groups were sent out.
Q Did
you hear where they were sent?
A No
Q You
did not hear whether they were sent to
A I
didn’t hear that.
Q Or
A I
didn’t hear it, sir.
Q You
knew Barth, or course?
A Yes,
I did.
Q Was
Barth intimate with Dasch?
A Yes
Q Did
they work together in the organization of these two groups?
A I
don’t know. When I got acquainted with
Dasch, he stayed at the school, and Barth usually came out to the school for a
week end.
Q Was
Dasch with Barth a good deal?
A Not
more than the other boys.
Q What
would you have done with those formulas if you had not lost them?
A I
would have given them to Mr. Lanman.
Q What
would you have done if Dasch had not turned it in to the F.B.I.?
A I
would have turned it in myself.
Q When
did you decide to turn it in yourself?
2659
A I
decided that as soon as I came out of the Gestapo place that I found -- that I
would find a way to get even.
Q When
did you decide you would turn this material in to the F. B. I. if Dasch did not
turn it in?
A As
soon as I knew it was all about at the school.
Q At
the school did you decide that the F. B. I. were the people you would report it
to?
A No,
I didn’t know about the F. B. I.
Q Whom
did you decide at the school you would turn it in to?
A I
didn’t know that, sir.
Q You
just decided you would turn it in?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Was
Saturday, the 13th of June, the first intimation you had that anyone
else in the group was not going to go through with it?
Colonel Royall. Maybe he doesn’t know what “intimation”
means.
The Attorney General. I think he understands it.
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Do
you understand?
A Well,
I’m trying to understand, if you will give me time a little time to consider that.
Q Surely.
A You
mean the first idea that anyone else did not want to go through with it?
Q Yes.
A Well,
that was the first idea and the first -- well,
2660
the
first hunch, you would say.
Q The
first hunch?
A That
George Dasch would not go through with it; but, on the other hand, I had some
ideas that, for instance, Heinck could not go through with it.
Q I
think you said other people in the group were distrustful, did you not?
A Yea.
Q Who?
A Heinck
and Quirin.
Q You
spoke before we had a recess of Kappe’s telling you that all the members of
both groups who were not in the Army were all the members of both groups who
were not in the Army were assigned to the Army units. Was anyone else there when Kappe said that?
A Well,
I beg your pardon, sir, but it is not quits right.
Q I
am sorry; I misunderstood it.
A You
see, Neubauer, for instance, was in the Army.
Q I
said that anybody else who was not in the Army would be assigned to Army units.
A Yes,
that is right.
Q Was
anybody else there when Kappe said that to you?
A Well,
I tried to remember during the recess. I
believe that Eddie knew it.
Q Eddie
who?
A I
am not quite sure whether Werner Thiel.
Q Eddie
Kerling?
A Yes. I remember that -- I do know that Kappe told
me that, as a matter of fact.
2661
Q But
you are not sure --
A (Interrupting)
But I don’t know who was around.
Q But
you think Thiel and Kerling may have been there?
A I
believe they were there. It was on the
porch of this school towards the lake, and there were to other boys passing by;
in fact, just stopping and listening.
Q Have
you finished?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
any of the other boys in your group tell you that they had been assigned to
Army units?
A No;
Kappe told me.
Q Only
Kappe told you?
A Yes. But may I go back to what we were talking
about just before the recess, sir?
Q Surely;
go ahead.
A That
was the conspiracy.
Q Go
on. Go ahead, Pete
A Well,
my idea was that, as far as the conspiracy is concerned, that, for instance,
George Dasch and I had a conspiracy against Germany, if that is the
understanding of the meaning of the word.
Q Did
you want to make any further explanation?
A That
is all.
Q Did
Dasch say anything to you about being a Communist or having been a Communist?
A He
told me he got in touch, when he was in the German Army during the First World
War -- that he got in touch with a man who studied philosophy and that he had
some Communistic ideas, and that he studied that with this man.
2662
Q Did
he say whether he ever was a Communist?
A Well,
not with the same words.
Q Not
what?
A Not
with these words.
Q What
did he say about whether he was a Communist or not, if he did not use those
words? What did he say?
A I
don’t recall it.
Q Were
you mixed up in the Communist riots in
A Yes,
against the Communists.
Q When
was that?
A That
was from 1923 up to 1927.
Q Did
your connection with those riots have anything to do with your leaving the
country?
A Yes.
Q What?
A Well,
you see -- May I explain that?
Q Certainly.
A At
1927 we had more than 30 different political parties in Germany, but the only
two parties really fighting on the street -- that was the National Socialist
Party -- that is the storm troopers -- on one side, and the Communists on the
other side. So, of course, there was a
continuous friction between us -- two groups -- and the difficulties between
the tow parties, as extreme left and extreme right, were not only fought out by
speeches but by actual fighting.
For instance, in 1924, in the occupied
2663
also
up to 1933, when Hitler got finally the regime.
Q What
had the connection with the Communist riots to do with you leaving
A Well,
I belonged to the storm troopers, see?
Q Yes.
A Well,
it wasn’t safe for me any more to stay in
Q What
were the dates when you were working for Roehm as aid-de-camp?
A From
the fall of 1933 up to
Q How
soon after you got back to
A Well,
when I came back to
Q You
did rejoin it, didn’t you?
A Sure,
I did, with out rejoining -- with out filing any application, just because they
knew me as a member before that.
Q How
soon after you got back to
A Well,
I rejoined it -- you see, I got the membership certificate -- that book -- a
year later, in 1934; but I immediately had all the boys around my place as soon
as I got back.
Q From
a practical point of view, you rejoined it immediately and got the book
later? You were active in the Party at
once, were you not, as soon as you got back?
A Yes,
that is right.
2664
Q You
did not take any additional oath, I suppose, did you?
A No,
no.
The Attorney General. All right.
That is all.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions
by Colonel Ristine:
Q Do
you remember, Mr. Burger, and incident or two which occurred in the school,
which indicated to you what Dasch’s intentions may have been?
A No,
not of his intentions.
Q Let
me refresh your recollection by reading from page 33 of your statement. It is the third paragraph.
“It was during one of these
tests conducted by George Dasch that I first got together with him and began to
get some idea that he was not the absolute Nazi which he pretended to be.”
A Yes,
sir, I remember not.
Q Would
you tell the Commission about that incident?
A Yes
Q If
you recall?
A Yes. George, Dasch and I were walking from the
school to a small tavern near by, about 45 minuets to walk, and also he came to
talk on my experiences with the Gestapo, so I expressed my feelings quite
impulsively, and he immediately stopped me and told me I should not say one
more word about it; there would be a time when he about ask me more about
it. But he did not
2665
express
anything about his intentions.
Q Well,
now, the expression that you made to him were very bitter against the Gestapo,
were they not?
A They
were.
Q It
was during the statement of your bitterness that he stopped you?
A That
is right, sir.
Q He
then told you there would be a time and a place when he would reopen that
subject but for the time you must be quiet?
A That
is right.
Q If
Dasch had been a loyal Nazi at the time, he would have turned you in to his
superiors, would he not?
A That
is possible.
Q And
would have reported you? In fact, he
would have encouraged you to go ahead with your statement is he had been a
loyal Nazi, would he not?
A Yes,
sir, that is very possible.
Q Well,
then, did not that indicate to you that he was not the Nazi that he has
pretended to be?
A I
had this opinion not only from this statement or from this specific incident,
but I had this feeling not only this time but several times.
Q Would
you relate to us some of the other instances which gave you that same
impression of Dasch’s intentions?
A Well,
I don’t believe I am the only one who had this impression, sir; I think
everyone at the school had the same impression, because he did not act like a
Nazi. You see, he did not even know how
to act. In fact, I believe, and I
2666
have
the true impression, that he did everything t, as I said -- the opposition.
Q Did
you notice that he lacked interest in the school work?
A You
mean the he was not interested?
Q Yes.
A Yes,
I noticed that. Everybody noticed that.
Q That
caused you and the others, you say, to distrust him or to feel that he was not
or had not intention of carrying out the plan?
A I
wouldn’t go so far, sir.
Q How
far would you go?
A Well,
I would say that we all had the impression -- and I personally myself -- that
he was not interested to live up to the orders we had there, you see, and our
orders were to study, and seeing he wasn’t interested -- in my opinion, there
is only one way for a man to go, so it wasn’t the way he wanted to go.
Q In
other words, you thought he was opposed to carrying out the plans that were
made in the school; is that right?
A Well,
the carrying out part, you know, I don’t know, because he did not confide in
me; but I did know and I realized that by not studying, he was not able to
carry out any orders given to him, see?
Supposing, for instance, the
explosives were not in out hand -- the ready-made explosives were not in our
possession any more. He was not able to
prepare a single formula or a single explosive by formulas because he simply
did not know it.
Q In
other words, he had not studied then enough to
2667
know
even how to mix them?
A That
is right.
Q Therefore,
you thought he had no intention --
The Attorney General. Wait a minuet. He has already said “No” to that. You are trying to make him say it again.
Colonel Ristine. I do not think I am trying to make him say
anything, Mr. Attorney General.
The Attorney General. Well, I do.
Colonel Ristine. I am just trying to get his viewpoint about
the matter.
2668
Questions by Colonel Ristine:
Q Now,
what instruction had you received before you left this submarine with respect
to any patrol or any persons that you might meet on the shore?
A About
two or three hours before we left the submarine the captain called us down
around the table and, together with two sailors and all the officers, we spoke
about the landing.
Then the captain said in case -- or
the question was brought up, in case we run into any guards or watchmen on the
beach, what we should do. And the
captain said he purposely had picked out two very strong and tall sailors so we
could overpower the sailor without using any arms or with out anything and put
any guard or whatever his is back in the boat, and the two sailors were
supposed to bring the man back to the submarine.
Q Now,
Dasch did run into a patrol?
A Yes.
Q And
you came up to him while he was talking to that patrol, didn’t you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Was
the patrol armed?
A I
don’t know, sir. I don’t know.
Q Was
it just a one-man patrol?
A It
was one man, yes.
Q What
did Dasch say to you when you came up there?
How close did you get to the patrol?
A Well,
standing in front of him.
Q Just
right next to him?
2669
A About
that far (indicating).
Q By
“that far” you mean with in 2 feet of him?
A Yes.
Q Now,
would there have been any difficulty in overpowering that man?
A No.
Q And
would it have been an easy matter to carry out the instructions of the captain
of the submarine?
A Yes.
Q What
did Dasch tell you to do?
A I
should go back to the other two boys and keep there.
Q By
the “other two boys” you mean the other two of your group of four?
A Yes,
Hennery and Dick.
Q And
I believe that you later learned, in connection with the sailor, that Dasch has
instructed the two sailors to go back to the submarine?
A He
did.
Q And
they went back?
A Because
when I went down -- I first thought it was one of our sailors. Then I realized it was an American sailor,
and I didn’t see out sailors anymore, so they must have left at that time
already.
Q Now,
didn’t that also indicate to you that Dasch had no intention of carrying out
the plan?
A It
indicated that he did not follow the orders.
Q Of
the submarine captain?
A And
orders given to us by our superior officers.
Q You
mean by that the submarine captain?
2670
A Yes,
sir.
Q Now,
do you remember that Dasch told you, when you were in
A No,
he did not.
Q Well,
Don’t you remember that he told you that he either told or intended to tell
that newspaper man of his intentions of getting in touch with the F.B.I. upon
his landing in the
A That’s
right, Sir.
Q Where
did that conversation happen?
A He
told me on Sunday, the 14th -- 14th of June he told me
that he met some one of the newspaper men or someone who was to be exchanged, I
suppose, in Paris, and he reminded me when I passed him and this man in Paris,
at the foyer of the hotel, that I saw this man, It is a fact.
Q Had
you seen him with one American in
A I
don’t know if he was American. I saw him
sit with a man who, he explained that he was to tell the F.B.I. about
everything.
Q Now,
what did you tell the other two of your group with respect to the Guardsman
that you met on the beach?
A You
mean from the moment when I cam back, seeing the Coast Guardsman?
Q When
George told you to go back to the other boys and keep them there, or what ever
he said, what did you do to carry that out?
A As
clear and I recall it, I came back -- I had the sea
2671
bag
with me -- I came back to the two boys and told them, first of all,
“down.” I believe, as much as I
remember, I told them, “Down”, to crouch down -- and I explained to them that
there was an American sailor, or something, because I saw that white cap and
that everything would be O.K., that George takes care of him, that he gave him
some money, and that’s all, I think.
Q Well,
did they want to carry out, or did either one of them want to carry out, the
order of the captain of the submarine?
Colonel Royall. Objection.
Of course, there is no objection from the standpoint of the defendant
Burger, because it does not concern him, but to ask him what some other
defendant wanted to do, when nobody can possibly know that, is not proper. We object on behalf of the other defendants.
The President. Objection sustained.
Questions by Colonel
Ristine:
Q Well,
did you carry out the orders and keep the other two boys away from the Coast
Guardsman?
A We
all kept away, sir.
Q All
three of you?
A Yes,
sir.
Q I
believe you explained to them that that was George’s order, that they should
remain there?
A Yes. In fact, we stayed there -- we stayed at the
same place until George came back, and then after George cam back we went up
the bank. We did not leave before George
came back.
Q When
was it that George explained to you the first time that he did not want to harm
that Coast Guardsman?
2672
A When
we waited for -- when we sat down the first time and waited for the sky to get
lit -- you know, for the dawn. When we
waited for dawn, then he explained to us what was going on with the Coast
Guardsman, that he gave him some money.
He told us about that -- that he told the boy about his father and
mother, and all that. He also told us
about hearing from
Q Didn’t
George tell you the Guardsman name?
A Yes,
he did. That was later.
Q Oh,
Later? Now tell me about the
conversation that Dasch has with you when he told you the Guardsman name and
that he wanted you to remember it. Now,
what did he say in that connection?
A After
we had started out from our -- from this place where we sat down and we waited
for light, for morning, Dasch and I walked together on the concrete road, and
he told me I should listen very carefully and remember the name Frank Collins
as the name of the Coast Guards boy, because there would be a day when I had to
remember that name and when he would use this name.
Q Did
he tell you where he would use the name?
A He
told me that in connection with
Q With
A Yes,
sir.
Q Now,
when was the first conversation you had after arriving in
A On
Saturday, the evening of our landing.
Q You
landed in the early morning hours on Saturday?
2673
A Yes,
on the 13th.
Q And
was it after dinner that you and he exchanged confidences?
A It
was partly through dinner.
Q Now,
will you tell the Commission what was said between you and George Dasch then
with respect to your mutual intentions?
A Well,
it was a conversation which lasted about three hours, and I’m afraid I cannot
recall everything what was said, but it was the idea of the whole conversation,
was, first of all, the conditions in Germany and the experiences he had over
there -- in fact, I did not do much talking, you see.
Q Did
George tell you about the hardships that his people had undergone?
A He
told me when he was a little boy and when he grew up -- well, he told me all of
his experiences, as much of his experiences as he could tell me inside of three
hours about.
After that we started walking through
this Radio City, and he explained to me -- showed me different things and
explained to me these mural paintings, pictures of the oppressed people and
slave drivers, and all that, and the substance of our talk was that I knew
exactly -- I told him that I knew exactly what he was up to, because he hinted
that he has a special plan which he has as a mission, more or less -- have to
carry out -- and finally -- I knew what
was going on, see.
Q Will
you tell the Commission what you knew?
Just tell them what you knew from the talk you had with Dasch there will
respect to Dasch
A Well,
the substance of out conversation on Saturday night Saturday -- well, Saturday
night -- started before we had
2674
dinner
and all during dinner and during the walk we had and up at about
I found out first that he had nothing
to do with national socialism whatever -- nothing at all -- secondly, that he
hated the regime over there, and, as I told you, that he had a mission which he
has to carry out over here, and this mission consisted in fighting the present
regime in Germany.
He did not tell me any definite plan
-- in fact, he did not tell me any definite plan as [3] long as I was together
with him, because I do not think he had any definite plan.
Q I
find on page 58 of your statement, which is in evidence, this paragraph, and I
might say that this paragraph has reference to the same evening that you are
just now relating and I will read it:
“This Convinced me that George was
against the present regime, as I was, and that he told me to carryout the
orders we had received. Then he told me
he would have to put me through different tests before he explained what he
intended to do. At this moment, I told
him, right to his face, that I knew exactly what he wanted to do.”
A Yes.
Q “His
answer was that if I knew that, I would have to kill him.”
A That’s
right.
Q “At
that I smiled and told him that I was quite sure that our intentions were very
similar. After this the restaurant
became crowded and we left.”
A That’s
right, sir.
2675
Q Does
that correctly state the facts?
A Absolutely.
Q As
connected with that conversation?
A Yes.
Q Now
the following day was Sunday, I believe?
A Was
Sunday, sir.
Q And
did you resume the conversation which was started on the Saturday evening on
Sunday?
A Yes,
Sunday morning until Sunday evening at
Q Did
you and George at that time go into more detail about your mutual plans and
ideas?
A No,
not onto detail about our mutual plans, but in details about his plans.
Q All
right. What did he state to you on the
Sunday, then, just briefly stated, that indicated what his plans were?
A Well,
I recall very distinctly that he told me right in the beginning that we would
have to fight it out if I meant the same -- if I do not have the same opinion
he has.
Q Or
do you mean intention?
A Intention,
I mean; Intention.
Q Now,
why did he say that you and he would have to fight it out if you did not agree
with him?
A Well,
because he told me he never had the idea of following orders and that was the
reason why he did not care to study and listen to all that what was taught at
the school.
Q He
did not take any interest in the school because he never intended to carry it
out?
A That’s
right. That’s what he told me Sunday
morning.
2676
Q And
that if you, on the other hand, were a loyal Nazi, because of what he told you,
you and he would have to fight it out?
A Yes,
and he reminded me of the fact that we were fourteen -- what do you call it?
Q Fourteenth
floor?
A Yes,
and the window was open.
Q And
what would happen if you did not agree with him?
A That’s
right.
Q Well,
what? Tell the Commission what was to
happen if you did not agree with him.
A He
told me that -- well, that we would have to fight it our, you see, that’s all.
Q And
one or the other would go out the window; is that right?
A Out
the window. That’s a fact.
Q Of
the fourteenth floor?
A Fourteenth
floor.
Q And
what did you tell him them?
A I
believe I smiled to him and told him that there was no reason for anyone going
out the window and there was no reason to fight it out, because I felt very
much the same way, and I could have told him the day before, the night before,
that that was the idea.
Q In
other words, that you and he agreed and therefore there was not any occasion to
fight; is that right?
A That’s
right. That’s right, sir.
Q Now,
I believe you and Dasch failed to keep a
2677
A Yes,
at the Swiss Chalet.
Q Where?
A At
the Swiss Chalet.
Q And
was that because of the intense interest that you and he were having in this
conference? You talked, I believe, until
5 that evening, or
A Yes,
May I remind you that we were talking from morning until
Q It
was one continuous --
A It
was on continuous talking and more or less one sided conversation, with the
exception of making a telephone call at the Chesterfield Hotel, if I remember
right.
Q Now,
tell me this. Was it after you had met
the other two boys that George called the F.B.I.?
A Yes,
exactly -- well, right after.
Q After
you left the other two boys he called the F.B.I. office in
A Yes.
Q And
did you know what he was going to tell the
A Yes,
he related to me afterwards.
Q Well,
can you remember what he told you about the conversation?
A He
told me that he got in touch with the F.B.I., that he was connected with an
agent, after stating his desire to
2678
talk
to an agent of the F.B.I.; that he told this man that each has landed -- well,
from Germany, and that he wanted them to inform Washington that he would be up
in Washington on Thursday, in order to see Mr. Hoover, and then the other man
told him Mr. Hoover is very busy, and George Dasch explained to me that he told
him, well, he will be more busy if he hears he has to say.
I recall that very distinctly.
Then he said -- the man asked him why
he did not come down and if he was afraid of anyone, and then finally he gave
his name as Daniel -- Franz Daniel Pastorius, and that’s [5] all, I think.
Q Then,
you knew on Sunday night that he was coming down the following Thursday to
A I
knew that Sunday morning already.
Q Sunday
morning?
A Sunday
before
Q Now,
will you explain to the Commission why Dasch did not want to talk immediately
with the F.B.I. in
A I
can’t tell you that, because I don’t know that, sir. I asked him what he was going to do and what
his plans are, and he told me he has no plans and he could not -- well, he was
in no state of mind to make any plans.
Q In
other words, his mental state was such that he did not feel equal to talking to
the F.B.I. immediately, is that right?
A Yes. I think he did not feel like talking to
anyone besides me, because he refused to see the other persons and
2679
refused
to talk to them also. He did not talk to
anyone.
Q When
was the last time that he met with you and the other two boys? Sunday night?
A I
am quite sure, sir.
Q Did
Dasch say anything to you about his playing cards and getting his mind off of
everything?
A Yes,
he did.
Q And
then when he got his mind on the cards and off of everything else for a couple
days his mind cleared up and he was then ready to talk with the F.B.I.?
A Yes,
that’s right.
When he came back and when I saw him,
I told him that I did not think it was the right thing for him to disappear for
such a length of time, especially when he told me he was playing pinochle --
that it was not exactly the right time to play pinochle at that time -- and he
told me that I should be glad that he did play pinochle, because he is now a
different man and he is more or less his old self again. That’s the way he stated it.
Q It
cleared up the think mentally; is that right?
A Well,
that’s what he stated.
Q So
that he could state more intelligently and connectedly?
A Well,
after he came back he was quite and, as he told me, was ready to sleep, and I
noticed that his hands did not tremble anymore, at they did before, and that he
was easier in his way of speaking, too.
Q And
he did come on down to
A Yes
he did.
2680
Q Now,
did you wait in the hotel there in
A I
did, sir.
Q I
believe you got the letter which he left with the clerk?
A Yes,
I did
Q You
did not get the other two letters he wrote you, however?
A I
did not.
Q Bu
they have been introduced here in evidence?
A Yes.
Q Now,
when the F.B.I. came into your room were you surprised?
A No,
I was not surprised.
Q Was
your door locked?
A No
-- in fact, I told the agents of the F.B.I. that I was expecting them.
Q You
were expecting them.
Colonel Ristine. I think that is all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Just
one or two questions, may it please the commission.
Pete, I believe you stated, in answer
to Attorney General’s questions, that you insisted on using your own name?
A Yes.
Q And
Kappe at first did not want you to, and you persuaded him to let you do so; is
that right? State what the fact about
this is.
2681
A Well,
I told him from the beginning -- I must state it like this. When I came to him he told me I should go as a
Czechoslovakian refugee with an entirely different name. The second story I was to prepare, or he
prepared together with me, was that I should go as a Jewish refuge, but I did
not intend to go under and false name, and I did not intend to leave me papers
with Kappe, as he originally wanted.
He wanted me to give him my papers --
in fact, it was the very last day that I got me gun permit back -- which were
all original papers, and the citizen papers also I got back the last day. I did not intend to leave my papers with
Kappe, so he would furnish them to somebody else, who would use them -- well,
in coming over here. Besides that I had
no reason from the beginning to use a false name.
Q Who
had the passport endorsement take off that (indicating)?
A Kappe.
Q Did
you know he had done it until you got it back?
A Yes. I did.
Q What
did you tell him about it?
A It
was his idea. He took it from me and
told me that he would take this stamp off in order -- he explained later, when
I repeatedly asked for my papers -- well, that he wanted to take that thing
off.
Q When
did he tell you that? After he had the
paper?
A Well,
just before we left.
Q How
long had he had the paper before he first told you that?
A He
had the paper from the --
2682
Q Well,
about how long?
A The
second day I got to school. It was about
four weeks later I got it back.
Q You
did not have it taken off?
A No.
Q Pete,
I think you explained this, but the language of some questions was not clear to
me. Why was it more difficult for you or
impossible for you to leave
A Because
I was employed by the Party. It was
impossible for me to just disappear.
Q A
party member could not leave
A Without
official business.
Q Without
official business?
A It
was impossible.
Q If
you had left without permission it would have been illegal in
A That’s
right. In fact, we were not allowed to
leave even the city without telling our superior officers -- that is, the job I
had.
Q Now,
I believe you stated that when you finally told the F.B.I., or when you told
the F.B.I. as soon as they cam in, the facts which were reduced to a statement,
they promised you that those facts would not get back to
A That
is right.
Q And
that is the fact you relied on in telling them that; is that right, sir?
A That’s
right, sir.
2683
Q I
believe you stated that the group did not have confidence in Dasch as a leader;
is that right?
A That’s
right, sir.
Q After
Dasch told you that he was going to report the matter -- and that was after you
got to
A I
did, sir.
Q And
he never told you until the 13th or 14th?
A Until
the 14th.
Q I
believe you said that the fact that Kappe was careless about the gold
certificates --
A Yes,
that’s right.
Q (continuing)
-- showed you how little the Germans cared for the safety of the people; is
that right? Is that what you meant?
A I
want to point out it did not mean anything as far as I am personally concerned,
because I did not have any gold certificates, but it meant a lot to the other
boys. I did not have any gold
certificates.
Q I
believe you already stated, in answer to a question of the Attorney General,
that from 1934 on, and particularly after your confinement, you intended to get
out of
A Get
out and get even.
Q And
that was your sole intention in joining this group and coming to
A That’s
right.
Colonel Royal. No other questions.
Attorney General. No other questions.
2684
The President. The Commission would like to ask some
questions.
2685
EXAMINATION BY THE COMMISSION
Questions by the President:
Q When
you landed from the submarine, did any other member of your group know that you
had marked the route from the landing place to the place of the boxes?
A I
don’t know, sir.
Q How
did Dasch find his way to that cache of the boxes in the darkness and fog?
A I
didn’t understand you, sir. To
what? He found his way to what?
Q You
left Dasch talking to the coast guardsman?
A Yes,
sir.
Q That
was some distance from where the boxes were buried or were being buried?
A Well,
at that time when he talked to the coast guardsman, we didn’t bury the
boxes. May I explain shortly how that
happened? The boxes were carried out
from the boat onto the beach, and as soon as everything was out on the beach,
it was again carried up to the foot of the bank; and in the meantime, when we
all -- we three boys -- were with the boxes, which were just covered a little
with sand, the coast guardsman approached George, and when the coast guardsman
was gone, George came back. It was only
a few feet off. Only a few feet. He came over from the place he was sanding
with the coast guardsman, walked to the foot of the bank, found us three boys,
and everything was carried up the bank and further away.
Q Were
Dasch, Heinck, and Quirin the only men who came ashore with you from the
submarine on
2686
A Yes.
Q When
did the sailors go back to the submarine?
A When
I came back -- when I wanted to carry back or bring back the sea bag to the
rubber boat, and I saw George talking to the coast guardsman, I didn’t see the
boat anymore, so the boat must have left with the two sailors shortly after
George came together with the coast guardsman.
Q Who
gave them orders to go back to the submarine?
A Well,
I didn’t hear George giving the orders, but he told me that he had given the
orders to those two sailors.
Q Before
he saw the coast guardsman?
A No,
when he saw the coast guardsman or after he saw the coast guardsman.
Q How
long did the submarine lie off the beach?
A It
was quite a long time -- a very long time -- after we had buried the boxes when
we heard the motors.
Q Several
hours
A I
couldn’t’ say, but it was a very long time; in fact, we heard the motors twice.
Q During
the night?
A Well,
after we buried the boxes.
Q Could
you see it?
A No;
we only saw these skyrockets.
Q The
what?
A The
signal rockets -- what you call it?
Colonel Royall. Skyrockets.
Colonel Ristine. The signal rockets or flares.
2687
Question by the President:
Q From
the submarine?
A I
don’t know if they were from the submarine.
I don’t believe that. It might be
that they came from the Coast Guard. We
noticed several times green -- these green signals, signal rockets, or what you
call them.
Q Did
you hear the motors of the submarine after those signals?
A That
was the second time I heard -- was afterwards.
Q Was
that shortly before you left to go to the road?
A Yes.
Q How
did you expect to find the hiding place of the boxes when you came back for
them? Did you have the place marked in
any way?
A Well,
I didn’t intend to come back, sir; that is as much as I know.
Q How
did the others expect to find them?
Well, I will not ask you that question.
A It
was easy. May I explain? It was easy to find the boxes, because there
were all different things all around the boxes and leading up to the boxes and
also away from the boxes.
Q Did
you or any other member of the group with you mark the place in any way on your
leaving the boxes?
A As
much as I know, it wasn’t specially marked; no, no.
Q When
you got out to the road, did you take your bearings as to where you reached the
road, so that you would know another time?
A No.
Q You
have stated on cross-examination that you
2688
suspected
that George Dasch would not carry out the plans. What other suspicions did you have? What other suspicions did you have about any
others?
A You
mean as far as the others?
Q What
other suspicions did you have about Dasch or any of the others in the
group? We will say about George Dasch,
first.
A Well,
that is very hard to explain, because, you see, nobody -- none of us could
afford to take the others -- or to come right out clear with his ideas what he
really intended to do pr when he not intended to do. Nobody could afford that, because not one
knew if he could trust the other one.
So, to my surprise, I heard here in
the courtroom that almost none had the intentions of carrying out any
orders. But if I think back, there are
several instances where you could more or less feel that it was not sincere,
see? There is no fact I could tell you
or no -- well, I can’t prove it by anything.
There is, for instance, a remark. Well, is it very hard for me. You see, I am used to only to tell you or
explain facts. But there is a small
remark, for instance, Kerling made in
He was standing next to me, and he
asked me, “Listen. What do you think
about your group?” and I answered,
“Well, I don’t really think very much of my group. I know Heinck -- Henry -- he is not a hundred
percent saboteur, as you may call -- he really isn’t; and, on the other hand,
George Dasch is not an ideal leader for a mission like we have orders.
2689
I explained that to him and Kerling
answered, “Well, there will be a way to get out.” Now I see, of course, there remarks in a very
different light as at the time.
Everything means something now.
Q Did
you know at that time that Kerling was the assistant leader of the group?
A No. I am talking about the leader of the second
group.
Q Kerling?
A Kerling.
Q I
will put the same question: Did you at that time when you were in
A That
was explained to us in
Q Why
do you suppose they did not make you the leader?
A Well,
Kappe wanted to make me the second leader, and Dasch opposed it; and, in fact,
Dasch told Kappe that -- in front of the other two boys and in front of myself
-- that he had no confidence whatever in me and that I would not be able to be
a leader of any group in the Untied States because my English was so very bad,
that I just didn’t have the ability, and besides that I looked so very much
like a Dutchman, he says, that it was no use of giving me any responsibility
whatever.
Q Why
do you suppose, when all your group was so suspicious of Dasch back in the
school at the time you were in the school, Kappe and Barth trusted Dasch?
A Well,
later I found out that Barth is related to him;
2690
I
didn’t know that at school. I think
nobody knew that. Then I found out that
Dasch worked for a few months together with Kappe, making out plans and working
at the office of the headquarters, so it seems he must have -- I don’t know,
but I do know that Kappe did whatever Dasch wanted and that Dasch could do
anything he wanted to do at school. He
came late. For instance, he came
late. Well, he was exactly the contrary
of a soldier. We had all uniforms. He came in civil cloths. You see, we all had out standard uniforms at
the school. When we had sport, he did
something else.
Q What
did you think at the time was the reason for Kappe’s confidence in him?
A Well,
in fact, I didn’t like it, and I couldn’t explain it. You see, it is very simple. I am a soldier; and if a soldier feels that
another soldier always is preferred and that he can do what he wants, and the
other one has to obey, that is not good for the spirit of the troop.
Q Did
you think at that time what possible Dasch was a fanatical Nazi or idealistic
Nazi?
A No,
he wasn’t. He never was. In fact, I don’t believe that -- you see, in
order to be a fanatical Nazi, a man has to study National Socialism and know
something about it. I believe in order
to be a fanatical Nazi he has to cooperate and stand a lot and go all through
that, and he didn’t. He couldn’t be a
fanatical Nazi.
Q Did
you consider the other members of the group in the Army of not in the Army at
the time you were in the school?
A Well,
first of all, it was a school which did belong and was the property of the
German High Command. The
2691
housemaster
was a member of the army. He was a
noncommissioned officer. The leader of
our school was Lieutenant Kappe.
I heard the remark made my Lieutenant
Kappe that all of us, or all the other boys which did not belong to the Army
before they joined this school, were assigned to the Army. On the other hand, when Kappe talked to me
about the contract, he told me that he could take me out of the Army pay -- out
of the Army -- and make a contract as a civilian with some certain amount of
money as payment, like anyone would employ somebody for monthly payment.
Q In
other words, an agent?
A Well,
I suppose you could call it an agent, but I refused it, so here is two
different versions on the matter. In my
case, I know that I was officially transferred to a formation near this
school. I came in uniform to
Q You
spoke of the others at the school, excepting George Dasch, wearing standard
uniforms.
A Yes. He also had one. He wore it several times.
Q Were
they issued to you at the school?
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
branch of the service or of the German Army did they belong to?
A They
were not German uniforms, sir; they were black, former Czechoslovakian uniforms
-- dyed black.
Q Why
do you think they were issued to you?
A Well,
they explained it that in order to protect out own civilian cloths.
2692
Q In
other words, they were available? They
had not mark in themselves? They did not
mean that you were in the German Army?
A No.
Q While
you were at the school, did you just naturally consider that the other members
were soldiers? That is, the other
members of those two groups who were there with you? Did you think of them as soldiers when you
were there?
A Well,
as far as their actions were concerned, with the exception of Neubauer, I
couldn’t think that they were soldiers.
That is a fact, because while I don’t have to go into details, they were
no soldiers -- actual soldiers. But, on
the other hand, my reason told me that if it is a school which belonged to the
German headquarters, and all that, then they must be somehow connected with the
Army, and all that.
Q You
mentioned a conversation with Kappe on this subject?
A Yes.
Q What
caused him to tell you that you were all soldiers?
A I
am quite sure I asked him; in fact, I recall now. I spoke on the occasion when we had to wear
the uniforms in
He said, “Forget it. They are all in the Army. Since February, 1942, they were all assigned
to the Army”; but I don’t know. That’s
all I know.
2693
Q You
spoke of yourself as being a trained soldier.
Where did you get your training?
A Well,
the last -- I had three different trainings in the German Army. The last training I received -- that was after I came from the Gestapo.
Q You
also spoke of being in the American Army?
A In
the National Guard, sir.
Q In
the 125th and 126th Infantry?
A 127th,
sir.
Q You
also spoke about bringing your discharge papers back to the
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
Character was given you on those two discharges?
A Excellent,
sir.
Q In
both cases?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Who
signed them?
A One
was signed by -- I don’t remember. My
captain was Szulakiewicz in one; the other one was signed by Captain
Jackson. He was my commanding
officer. But there was also a letter of
recommendation by my captain in order to secure a job in
Q What
do you consider Dasch if he is not a Nazi?
A Pardon
me, sir?
Q You
stated that you did not consider Dasch a Nazi?
A No.
Q What
do you consider him if he is not a Nazi?
How would you describe him?
A You
mean as far as his political ideas are concerned?
2694
Q Yes.
A Well,
that is very hard to make a definite answer.
I myself -- I studied, and I had to study, in order to know about all
different forms of government. It is
very hard to guess, as much as I know of George’s opinion on general things --
to class him in one party or ideal.
Q How
would you describe him in talking to somebody who had heard him talk and had
dais, “Well, what kind of fellow is Dasch, anyhow?” What would you answer be to that? What would you say in German?
A Well,
you see, talking about George Dasch, sir, you can’t say that in one word. You could not. You want me to give a value? Is that the idea, sir?
Q Yes.
A Well,
I don’t think I could do it with just one or two words.
Q Well,
do it with one or two sentences. Just
give me your frank opinion.
A I
believe that in his work as a salesman, which he really was -- his former
occupation --
Q As
what?
A As
a salesman. I mean now, as far as he is
concerned a man is his work -- I am quite sure, I am convinced --
Colonel Ristine. I did not catch what you described him as,
first.
The Witness. Talking about his ability and his occupation
and his job and his work, he is a first-class salesman.
Colonel Ristine. I did not catch that.
The Witness. As a man, I think you could trust him as a
2695
friend;
I am quite sure of that. As far as his
political ideas are concerned, I do not think that he has any clear view, with
exception of fighting against injustice done over there right now. I believe that he is -- that that is the main
thing which occupies his mind right now and pushes everything back in the
background.
Questions by the President:
Q You
stated that you and the defendant had a conspiracy against
A Yes.
Q When
did you and Dasch enter into this conspiracy?
A Well,
sir, it was -- I tried to answer the question which was mentioned by the
prosecution just before the recess. The
talk was about conspiracy. I was trying
to explain -- and I want to mention I have to legal mind whatever; I am just as
I said in my way of being a soldier -- that if there is any conspiracy, why,
the conspiracy was made against the United States, so, on the other hand, it
must have been against Germany.
Q Did
you even know the leader of
A Yes.
Q Personally?
A Yes.
Q Intimately?
A Yes,
sir.
Q As
a member of the Nazi Party, you mentioned taking a personal oath to him?
A In
1923, sir.
Q That
was when you became a member of the party?
2696
A Yes,
as a storm trooper; and after I came back from the Gestapo, as every soldier,
drawn up in a square, the second week after they get drawn into the Army, they
have to repeat the formula of allegiance to the highest commander of the Army,
which I Adolf Hitler.
Q Do
you consider yourself still loyal to Hitler?
A I
do not consider myself, sir, because I am not a German citizen any more. When I came back from the
Q You
considered yourself, while you were in
A Well,
I didn’t do that either. I have to tell
the truth. I didn’t consider myself as
an American either. I came back, and I
worked in and for the Party, and in 1934 that happened: that blew up
everything, every ideal, and – well –
Q Was
that when you lost your loyalty to Hitler?
A That
is right.
Q Because
he killed your friend Roehm?
A All
of them; not only Roehm; there were thousands of them.
Q At
any time while you were under the control of the Gestapo, were there any
charges made against you as a non-Aryan by the Gestapo?
A No,
sir. That was the idea given to me by
Kappe, which I should use in order to help myself along over here, and that
isn’t true. I should pose as a refugee;
but if I am a refugee, I am not a Jewish refugee.
Q You
were accepted as an Aryan by the Nazis?
A Yes. I had to prove—they all have to prove—that
2697
way
back to 1700 and so and so.
Q Did
you at any time consider yourself in personal danger from the others of your
group?
A I
had a very uncertain feeling once. I
wouldn’t say personal danger; I don’t know.
Q What
were the instructions of Kappe to each and every one of you as to your action
in case any others of the group failed in their mission or their loyalty to
A It
was pointed out to us, not only once but repeatedly, and also at the last
meeting we had at the Zoo Restaurant, where the official banquet was, in order
to farewell and give us last introductions to the high bosses of the German
High Command – it was pointed out clearly, and there is quite a number of
witnesses for that, even if their memory is not so good any more, that anyone
who exposes the plan has to be removed, and if anyone kills another of the boys
because on squealed – they told him very plain that didn’t have to be afraid of
any consequences when he came back to Germany.
Q Do
you consider Dasch a loyal German?
A No.
Q You
spoke of yourself as being charged with establishing a front as a commercial
artist in
A Artist,
yes.
2698
Q Do
you know a commercial artist in
A No.
Q You
spoke of and described the uniform that was issued for coming over to
A There
is no belt.
Q Was
there any reason why you stated that?
A Yes,
I had a reason for stating that, because one of the other boys stated in one of
his statements over here that we received belts. We did not receive any belts.
Q There
was no other reason?
A That
was the only reason, sir.
The President. Are there any questions by the members of the
Commission? There seem to be none.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q I
had one or two things that were suggested by the Commission’s questions.
If one of the members of your group
squealed, were you instructed to report that back to
A No. We had no possible way of reporting anything
back.
Q Well,
you had certain names on the handkerchief?
A I
did not know about the names on the handkerchief.
Q If
one of you were arrested or caught, what were your instructions?
A Well,
as far as instructions are concerned, I don’t
2699
know
any, but I do know that in case we were arrested our contract said that the pay
would probably cease – you know what I mean – that the pay which was given to
our folks at home – that that would stop – would be stopped.
Q Didn’t
you ever discuss with Kappe or with anybody else there what would happen if you
were arrested, what you were to say?
A What
would happen to whom? To me? To anyone?
Q What
you were to do if you were arrested.
What were you to say? What was
your story to be?
A Well,
the consequences were clear.
Q I
did not say the consequences. If you
were arrested were you told to say what you were doing?
A I
do not recall that, sir.
Q You
did not discuss that, you think?
A I
was discussed. I am quite sure it was
discussed. Now you are speaking of that,
I am trying to see what it was. I do not
recall at the present time.
Q There
was no plan?
A What
do you mean, plan?
Q There
was no plan in case you were caught as to what you should say? Wasn’t it planned out?
A I
do not remember that, sir.
The Attorney General. That is all.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Pete,
am I correct in my recollection that you stated that before you knew the Coast
Guardsman was there you started marking the way to these boxes, and after you
learned he was
2700
there
you continued to do so?
A Yes,
that’s right.
Q Did
you explain fully to the F.B.I. when you reached your intention of seeking to
escape from
A Yes,
I did.
Q They
are set out in your statement, are they?
A There’s
quite a number of different things I said which are not in the statement.
Q You
did tell them substantially all that is in the statement.
A Yes,
I did.
Q Are
these your two discharges from the Army (handing documents to the witness)?
A Yes,
sir.
Q One
signed by – Do you know that name (indicating)?
A No,
sir.
Q Howard
H. Jackson, Captain, 125th Infantry?
A That’s
right,
Q And
the second, Walter J. Szulakiewicz?
A Yes.
Q And
these are two letters from Captain Szulakiewicz?
A May
I see the second one?
Q Yes,
and in the second letter it refers to the fact that you left
A That’s
right, sir.
Colonel Royall. We would like to have these marked for
identification. We offer them in
evidence.
The President. I thin they are on the record, are they
2701
not,
in view of the questions?
Colonel Royall. They are referred to in the record, but were
not copied in the record. I thought we
could use these Photostats.
(Letter
from Captain Szulakiewicz dated May 26,
1933,
was received in evidence and marked
Defendant’s Exhibit H.)
(Letter
from Captain Szulakiewicz dated September
30,
1933, was received in evidence and marked
Defendant’s Exhibit I.)
(Discharge
of Burger, dated
received
in evidence and marked Defendant’s
Exhibit J.)
(Discharge
of Burger, dated
was
received in evidence and marked Defendant’s
Exhibit K.)
Colonel Royall. Unless the other parties desire them read, I
do not care to read them, but I would like to have them read in the
record.
The President. They were both excellent discharges?
Colonel Royall. Yes, sir; and the letters themselves do
contain some information about employment that I would like the Commission to
read. One of the discharges has an
especially complimentary remark.
(DEFENDANT’S EXHIBIT H)
“
Company K, 127th Infantry,
(Organization)
(Station}
(Date)
“To whom it may concern:
2702
“This
is to certify that Ernst P. Burger, has been a member of Company K, 127th
Infantry, Wisconsin National Guard since October 19th, 1931, under
my command, and it is with pleasure that I recommend him for whatever he
undertakes.
“During
his service has proven himself honest and reliable in all his duties and above
all his loyalty was beyond reproach, and my regret is in loosing him as a member
of my organization and as a friend.
(Signed) Walter J. Szulakiewicz,
Captain 127th
Inf.,
Commanding.
3226-So.
- - -
(DEFENDANT’S EXHIBIT I)
“
(Organization)
(Station)
(Date)
Mr.
Ernest Burger,
Vokiant
Str. 8,
My dear Ernest:
“I
received your letter of
“I
read your letter to the entire organization.
The boys in return are sending you many happy wishes and are hoping to
see you again.
“I
have forwarded your final check for $1.95 to
2703
Miss Fink as requested in your
letter. No doubt you will hear from her
shortly.
“I
am enclosing herewith your honorable discharge and I have no doubt but what you
will be proud of same to show your family and friends of your excellent service
in the National Guard. Quite a change
has taken place in the organization since you left. Your friends from
“The
employment situation has improved a great deal.
Practically all the members of the organization are now working. It appears to me that you left at the wrong
time.
“Hoping
to hear from you in the near future, and with best wishes, I remain
“Sincerely yours,
“(Signed)
W. J. Szulakiewicz
Capt. Comdg. Co. K. 127th
Inf.”
- - -
(DEFENDANT’S
EXHIBIT J.)
“NATIONAL GUARD
OF THE UNITED STATES
AND OF THE
STATE OF
To
all whom it may concern:
“This
is to Certify, That Ernest P. Burger Prvt. 1 cl. Company ‘K’ 127th
Infantry Wisconsin National Guard as a Testimonial of Honest and Faithful
Service, is hereby Honorably Discharged from the National Guard of the United
States and of the State of Wisconsin by reason of Acct of
2704
Removal fr.
“Said
Ernest P. Burger was born in
“When
enlisted he was 25 years of age and by occupation a Draftsman.
“He
had Grey eyes, Blonde hair, Fair complexion, and was 5 feet 6 inches in height.
“Given
under my hand at
The Adjutant General’s Office (Sgd) F. W. Kerrier
Commanding
Approved:
By
Command of the Governor,
(Sgd) N.
M. Schautz,
Asst. Adjutant General.”
(Reverse side
of Defendant’s J)
“ENLISTMENT
RECORD
Name:
Ernest P. Burger Grade: Pvt. 1 cl.
Enlisted
Serving in First enlistment perod at
date of discharge.
Prior service: Enl. Co. A. 125th Inf. Mich. N. G.
June 17/31. Has Disch. as Pvt. Oct. 21/31
acct. of removal
Noncommissioned officer: Never.
Marksmanship, gunner qualification or
rating: Rifle M.M. org. G. O. 14 A.G.O
Wis. Dec. 1/32.
Horsemanship: Not mounted.
2705
Battles, engagements, skirmishes,
expeditions: None
Knowledge of any vocation: Tool & die making
Wounds received in service: None
Physical condition when
discharged: Good
Thyroid prophylaxis completed
Paratyphoid prophylaxis completed
Married or single: Single
Character: Excellent
Remarks: Service honest and faithful
Signature of soldier: Not available
Ernest P. Burger
(Sgd) Walter
J. Szulakiewicz
Capt.
127th Inf.,
Commanding
- - -
(DEFENDANT’S
EXHIBIT K)
“NATIONAL GUARD
OF THE UNITED STATES
AND OF THE
STATE OF
To
all whom it may concern:
“This
is to Certify, That Ernest P. Burger, Private, Company A. 125th
Infantry, National Guard Reserve as a Testimonial of Honest and Faithful
Service, is hereby Honorable Discharged from the National Guard of the
“Said
Ernest P. Burger was born in
“When
enlisted he was 25 years of age any by occupation a Draftsman. He had Grey eyes, Brown hair, Light
complexion, and was five feet five inches in height.
2706
“Given
under my hand at
(Signed) Matthias A. Weisenhaufer
“Lt.
Col. 125th Inf.
“Commanding”
(Reverse of Defendant’s K)
“ENLISTMENT RECORD
Name:
Ernest P. Burger Grade: Private
Enlisted
Serving in First enlistment period at
date of discharge.
Prior service: None
Noncommissioned officer: No
Marksmanship, gunner qualification or
rating:
Horsemanship: Not mounted
Battles, engagements, skirmishes,
expeditions: None
Knowledge of any vocation: Draftsmen
Wounds received in service: None
Physical condition when discharged
: Good
Typhoid prophylaxis completed No
Paratyphoid prophylaxis completed No
Married or single: Single
Character: Excellent
Signature of soldier: Ernest Peter Burger
“(Signed) Howard H. Jackson
“Capt.
125th Inf.
“Commanding
2707
FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Just
one question occurs to me. You said just
now that there were a good many things omitted from the statement you gave the
F.B.I.?
A Oh,
yes.
Q What
things were omitted?
A Political
things.
Q You
mean about your political ideas?
A About
the political situation over there, about the number of Gestapo agents working
in Central America and South America, and a number of things; but not connected
with this case.
Q Not
connected with this case?
A No,
sir.
Q Simply
information that was useful to the F.B.I.?
A That’s
right, sir.
The Attorney General. That is all.
The President. The Commission has one more question.
Questions by the President:
Q Do
you remember whether or not Kappe told you to confess in case one or all of you
were caught?
A No,
sir. On the contrary, in case anyone got
caught we were not to tell anything.
That was understood. That was
understood from the beginning. That was
understood from the beginning.
Colonel Royall. May I ask one more question?
The President. Yes.
2708
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q In
fact, you had a pledge of secrecy that covered that, did you not?
A Yes.
Q What
was the penalty if you violated the secrecy?
A Death.
Colonel Royall. I would like to ask the Commission to take
time to glance at the letters, since I did not read them.
That is all.
The Attorney General. We have no more questions.
The President. There seem to be none by the Commission. The witness is excused.
Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, we desire to
offer in evidence a confidential letter from the Adjutant General, to which is
attached one confidential War Department letter of
The Attorney General. We object to the offer, may it please the
Commission, and would like to have the officer called who is familiar with the
order. General Cramer can best explain
the reason for that.
In the second paragraph of the letter
appears the following:
“The
name of the Eastern Theatre of Operations is changed to Eastern Defense
Command. The Eastern Defense Command
will not be a Theatre of Operations.”
2709
That was done for the specific purpose
of avoiding the operations which were done in the furnishing of supplies with
reference to certain specific operations, and I think this offer would be
extremely confusing unless the circumstances under which this order was made
were explained and why it was redefined in this way.
I would like General Cramer to add a
word about it.
Colonel Royall. May I say this, before General Cramer says
anything? We are not trying to keep any
facts out. If General Cramer personally
knows of any circumstances which would qualify or explain that letter, we have
no objection to its going in the record as a fact, if he personally knows it. But we do think the order itself should be
admitted.
The Judge Advocate General. I only know as I have been told from the
people that have been talking about it.
I do not know myself. The commander
general of the theater of operations is generally responsible for the supplies. First they called it the Eastern Theater of
Operations. They never called it by that
name on the West Coast. It was the
Western Defense Command. So they changed
the name of the Eastern Theater of Operations to the Eastern Defense Command.
In order not to put the burden upon
the commander general of supplying all the organizations there and keeping it
with the S.O.S., they inserted in there that the Eastern Defense Command will
not be a Theater of Operations, so far as the supplying and administration of
it is concerned.
However, what is a theater of
operations is a question of fact. An
actual theater of operations comes within the rules of land warfare.
2710
If you are satisfied with that
explanation, we have no objection.
Otherwise we would like the officer who certified that and knows about
it –
Colonel Royall. We have no objection to any of the facts
stated by the Judge Advocate General. We
might object to his conclusions drawn therefrom.
The Attorney General. We are not satisfied with this exhibit going
in unless the officer who is familiar with the reason for the letter of
I do not think this offhand
speculation, particularly for those who are not familiar with the reasons for
it, is sufficient for our purposes.
Therefore, we must object to the offer from any point of view and
request that the officer familiar with it be called. It is a very vital and important thing, as
you can readily see, particularly if this record is used elsewhere.
Colonel Royall. In view of that statement, I withdraw our
admission about the facts, if you do not want us to admit them.
I still offer this in evidence. It is in the same form as evidence offered by
the prosecution and accepted by the Commission.
I see no reason why it should not apply to us as well as to them.
The Attorney General. I object to this for the reasons I have
stated. I do not think that this is even
an official or certified document, but I will object to it from every point of
view. It is improperly proved,
improperly identified, and does not really state the basis of the order, which,
to clarify the record, should be clarified by the officer who made it.
2711
Is there any certificate on it?
Colonel Royall. No, but it is a War Department letter and it
was in effect. This is an Army Map, and
it was in effect.
The Attorney General. I am being highly technical. I object to it as being improperly identified
and as being not material.
Colonel Royall. I do not know how you can have any more
certificate than that.
The President. Are there any other witnesses to be called
this afternoon?
Colonel Royall. We have two very short witnesses.
The President. This is off the record.
(There was a discussion off
the record, after which the following occurred:)
The President. Unless there is objection on the part of any
member present, this can be admitted in evidence, and, of course, the
explanation that has been given by the Judge Advocate General is also in the
record to explain it from the side of the prosecution, and also that you can
furnish any other information that you care to submit about it.
Colonel Royall. We have no objection, if they want to rely on
the Judge Advocate General’s statement, to admitting as evidence any facts
which he stated. He had some argument in
there which, of course, we do not admit.
(Confidential War Department Letter, dated
dated
evidence
and marked Defendant’s
Exhibit L.)
(Army
Service Map, attached to above
letter
was received in evidence and
marked Defendant’s Exhibit M.)
2712
Colonel Royall. I wondered if the Commission wanted to take a
five-minute recess.
The President. We will take a ten-minute recess at this
time.
(A short recess was had,
after which the following occurred:)
2713
The President. The Commission is open. Come to order and proceed.
In order to make sure that the record
is clear, I should like to have the reporter read the admission as to the
official document from the War Department.
Colonel Munson. Before proceeding, may the record show that
The Judge Advocate General is temporarily absent from the courtroom following
the recess.
The Reporter (reading):
“Unless
there is objection on the part of any member present, this can be admitted in
evidence, and, of course, the explanation that has been given by The Judge
Advocate General is also in the record to explain it from the side of the
prosecution, and also that you can furnish any other information that you care
to submit about it.”
The President. We are not concerned about the official part
of it. I understand that you are sending
for a witness to add to the information?
The Attorney General. General Cramer is now trying to et a
witness. He is on the telephone at this
minute.
The President. But not purely to certify to it?
The Attorney General. Oh, no; to explain it.
The President. Yes.
Colonel Ristine. If the Commission please: In explanation of Mr. Burger’s statement that
Dasch argued against Burger’s being his assistant, I should like to read one
paragraph of the Burger statement into the record as explanatory of that.
2714
The Attorney General. It is already in the record; I do not quite
see the purpose of putting it in twice.
Colonel Ristine. I am reading from page 49, the first
paragraph on the page:
“The
cause of this argument was that George Dasch had stated that he saw no reason
why the group should engage in any activities whatsoever in the
2715
we arrived in the
Colonel
Dowell. Mrs. Kerling.
Colonel
Royall. With the permission of the
Commission, I should like to be absent during the examination of the next two
witnesses.
(At
this point Colonel Royall withdrew from the courtroom.)
Lieutenant
Page. Mrs. Kerling. This witness has not been sworn to secrecy.
Colonel
Munson. Mrs. Kerling, the Commission
before which you are appearing requires of all witnesses the taking of an oath
as to the secrecy of these proceedings.
The Commission further instructs me to inform each witness before the
taking for the oath that violation of the oath may result in proceedings in
contempt or other proceedings of a criminal nature. Therefore, in taking the oath, you understand
that to be the fact, do you not?
Mrs.
Kerling. Yes.
Colonel
Munson. Hold up your right hand, please.
Do
you solemnly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings taken in this
trial to anyone outside the courtroom until released from our obligation by
proper authority or required so to do by such proper authority, so help you
God?
Mrs.
Kerling. So help me God.
Colonel
Munson. Do you swear that the evidence
you shall give I the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
2716
Mrs. Kerling. I do.
Colonel
Munson. You may be seated.
What
is you full name?
Mrs.
Kerling. Marie Kerling.
Colonel
Munson. Where is your residence?
Mrs.
Kerling. In
Colonel
Munson. What street address?
Mrs.
Kerling.
Colonel
Munson. What is your occupation, if any?
Mrs.
Kerling. Cook.
Colonel
Munson. Your witness.
MARIE
KERLING
was called as a witness for the defense
and testified as follows:
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions
by Colonel Dowell:
Q Mrs. Kerling, how do you spell your first
name, please?
A Marie – M-a-r-i-e.
Q You are the wife of the defendant
Kerling?
A I am.
Q How long have you been married to him?
A Since 1930.
Q Do you know that he recently returned
from
A Well, I didn’t until somebody else told
me.
Q When did he return?
A When he came over in this country? I don’t know what date.
2717
Q About how long ago?
A Well, I was told on Tuesday that he is
in this country. That was on the 23rd.
Q When was the last time ou saw him before
that?
A Just before he returned to
Q Before that?
A Yes, about two and a half years ago.
Q Howlong?
A About two, two and a half years ago.
Q When did he leave for
A I don’t know. Was it 1939 or 1940?
Q What happened in 1939? Did you husband make an effort to go to
A Yes, he tried to go home.
Q With what result?
A He couldn’t go.
Q Why?
A The Government had stopped him.
Q What effort was he making to go?
A Well, they bought a boat. They tried to sail over there.
Q From where?
A Well, I don’t know which way they wanted
to go, but they went down to
Q The Government stopped it, you say?
A Yes.
Q Where did your husband go then?
A He came back to
Q Was he employed?
2718
A Not at that time, no.
Q Did you now that he was trying to go to
A Yes.
Q Did you know that he finally went to
A Yes.
Q When?
A He sailed on the American Export Line.
Q In what year? Do you remember?
A I guess it was 1940 or 1939.
Q You think maybe it was in 1940?
A Yes.
Q Have you been happy with your husband?
A Well, yes--yes and no.
Q Just explain what you mean by “no.”
A Well, when we were working together, we
were not so happy.
Q What do you mean by “when we were working
together”?
A We were working as a couple.
Q As a couple?
A Yes.
Q Doing what?
A Doing domestic work.
Q In a family household?
A Yes, that is right; a private house.
Q What work were you doing.
A I was the cook.
Q What was your husband?
A He was the chauffeur.
2719
Q That was the time you had your trouble?
A Yes.
Q How serious was that trouble?
A Well, Eddie wanted a divorce.
Q Do you know why?
A Well, we couldn’t get along.
Q Did that trouble clear up later?
A Yes, it did.
Q Why?
A Well, I guess the reason of the trouble
was we were too much together.
Q Well, you were still together, were you
not?
A Yes.
Q What was it that happened that caused the
change?
A Well, when the war broke out, Eddie gave
up the job.
Q When what war broke out?
A In
Q Why did he give up the job?
A Why?
Q Yes.
A Well, Eddie wanted to go home.
Q By “home” you mean—
A
Q You know where he was going?
A Yes.
He told me he wanted to go home.
Q After his return in, I think you said,
1942, you found out where he had been?
A In
Q You found out he had been in
2720
A Yes.
Q Do you know Hedy Engemann?
A I do.
Colonel
Dowell. May it please the Commission,
the reason for these questions will appear when the next witness is called.
Questions
by Colonel Dowell:
Q Is she a friend of yours?
A Yes, she is.
Q A close friend?
A Not too close.
Q For how long?
A I know her about a year.
Q About a year? Where did you know her?
A I met her through Mrs. Neubauer.
Q Where?
A In
Q While your husband was in
A He did.
Q How many times?
A Oh, I got quite a few letters from him.
Q Did he ever ask you to come
A Yes, in each letter.
Q Did he ever arrange for you passage?
A I had a chance to go home.
Q What was your condition as to health
during the time he was absent?
2721
A Well, I wasn’t well.
Q Go on and tell more about it.
A Well, I tried to save up to have an
operation, and I wanted to go home after the war.
Q What did you tell you husband, if
anything, with reference to coming over to
A I kept on telling him that I will come
home after the war.
Q After the war?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell him why?
A No.
Q You say he arranged for your
transportation at one time?
A Well, I had a chance to go home, yes.
Q What do you mean by “a chance”?
A The German Consul called me down and
asked me if I wanted to go home, and I said, “No.”
Q Did your husband fully understand why you
would not come to
A No, he didn’t.
Q Do you mean you did not tell him?
A No, I didn’t tell him.
Q Did
you not tell him you were sick and needed an operation?
A No,
I didn’t.
Q Did
anyone else know what opportunity you had to go to
A I
don’t know; probably, yes.
2722
Q Pardon?
A I
guess so.
Q Who?
A It
is Mrs. Baker.
Q Did
Hedy Engemann know anything about it?
A Hedy? Yes, I told her I wouldn’t go home.
Q Well,
you did talk it over?
A Yes,
I told her I would go home after the war.
Q Well,
how did you talk it over? What did you
say to each other?
A I
didn’t give her any special reason; I just said I wanted to g home after the
war and have the operation over while I am over here.
Q Did
you have the operation?
A About
three months ago.
Colonel Dowell. No further direct examination.
(At this pint The Judge
Advocate General entered the courtroom.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Where
were you born, Mrs. Kerling?
A
Q You
are a German citizen now?
A Yes.
Q You
tried to get back to
A No.
Q Were
you on the boat?
2723
A I
visited my husband on the boat.
Q You
were not trying to get back when you were on the boat?
A No.
Q You
were just visiting your husband?
A Yes.
Q Why
was he trying to get back?
A Well,
quite a few fellows wanted to go back.
Q Why
was your husband going back? To fight
with
A Just
to be in
Q To
fight with
A I
guess so, yes.
Q Are
you a member of any German organization, fraternal, or political?
A Well,
I was.
Q What?
A My
husband put me in it.
Q In
what?
A I
don’t know what you call it. The German
Labor Party.
Q The
German Labor Party?
A Yes,
sir.
Q When
was that?
A Oh,
that was away back in 1930.
Q Did
you go to any of the meetings?
A No.
Q When
did you first hear about your husband’s being
2724
back
here? On Tuesday, the 23rd of
July?
A That
is right.
Q Who
told you about it.
A Helmut
Leinert.
Q On
the telephone?
A No;
I met him that night.
Q Who
was with him?
A He
was alone. He was in Hedy’s store.
Q Were
you alone, too?
A I
was with Miss Engemann.
Q What
did he tell you?
A He
asked me if I wanted to go with him for a blind date, and I said, “No.”
Q Go
with him for what?
A A
blind date.
Q Yes?
A And
so I said I didn’t want to go, and he says, Eddie is here,” and I thought he
was kidding, so I told him he was crazy, and he said, “Well, come along,” so I
wanted to find out, and we went downtown, but Eddie wasn’t there.
Q You
did not see Eddie?
A No.
Q What
did he tell you Eddie had told him?
A He
didn’t tell me anything; he just wanted to say that Eddie wants to see me.
Q Did
he tell you how Eddie had come back?
A No. I asked him, and he said he didn’t know.
Q I
said July 23. That should have been June
23 that you saw him.
A Yes.
2725
Q I think I said July; it should have been
June?
A Yes.
Q You
said you had a chance to go home at one time?
A Yes.
Q By
“home” you meant
A Yes.
Q The
consul sent for you and told you how you could get home?
A No,
he just asked me if I wanted to.
Q And
you said you did not?
A Yes,
I said I didn’t want to.
Q What
was your condition then?
A I
am all right, I guess.
Q No;
at that time, when the consul asked you if you wanted to go home, were you
well?
A No,
I didn’t feel well.
Q Was
that the reason why you did not go home?
A Yes,
I wanted to save up and have the operation done over here.
The Attorney General. That is all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q By
having a chance to go home, did you understand that transportation had been
placed at your disposal, if you wanted to go?
A Yes.
Q I
am requested to ask you one more question by the defendant. Did you ever express a desire for your
husband to marry Hedy Engemann?
2726
A Did
I ever express that to my husband?
Q A
desire that he should do so?
A I
thought he was in love with her; but don’t know; maybe Hedy is in love with
him. I don’t know.
Q Did
you say any such thing to him or suggest to him that he should get a divorce
and marry Hedy?
A I
asked him if he wanted to marry somebody else.
Colonel Dowell. That is all.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Question by the Attorney
General:
Q What
did he say when you asked him that?
A “No”;
he said he loves me.
The Attorney General. That is all.
Colonel Dowell. That is all.
The President. The witness may be excused.
Colonel Dowell. Miss Engemann.
Colonel Page. Miss Engemann. Miss Engemann has not been sworn. Mr. Lowenthal, who is with her, has not been
sworn.
Colonel Munson. The Military Commission before which you are
appearing as a witness, Miss Engemann, and I which you are merely appearing in
an official capacity, Mr. Lowenthal, requires each person in the courtroom to
take an oath of secrecy as to these proceedings, namely, that he or she will
not divulge that secrecy by any remarks outside the courtroom.
It also instructs me to inform each
person appearing in the courtroom that violation of that oath may result in
contempt proceedings or proceedings of a criminal nature. So, in taking that oath, you understand that to
be the fact, do you?
2727
Miss Engemann. Yes.
Mr. Lowenthal. Yes.
Colonel Munson. Does each of you solemnly swear that you will
not divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to anyone outside the courtroom
until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by
such proper authority, so help you God?
Miss Engemann. I do.
Mr. Lowenthal. I do.
Colonel Munson. Miss Engemann, you take the oath as a
witness.
Do you swear that the evidence you
shall give in the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Engemann. I do.
HEDWIG ENGEMANN
was
called as a witness for the defense and testified as follows:
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q What
is your full name?
A Hedwig
Engemann.
Q Will
you spell you last name, so that the reporter may have it in the record?
A H-e-d-w-i-g.
Q And
your last name?
A E-n-g-e-m-a-n-n.
Q Where
do you reside?
A
2728
Q What is your occupation, if any?
A Governess;
and we have a store at home.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Dowell:
Q Miss
Engemann, do you know the accused?
A I
do.
Q If
so, what is his name?
A Edward
John Kerling.
Q How
long have you known him?
A Two
and a half years.
Q Remember
that you are speaking to the Commission, now.
I will ask you questions, and you will address your replies to
them. Speak loud enough for everybody to
hear. That includes all of the accused.
You have know him for two and a half
years?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Where
did you first meet him?
A In
Q In
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you know anything about a boat that he and some others had down there?
A Well,
I met him--when I met Edward Kerling, we went to the boat that night.
Q You
often went to the boat during the time you were down there when you knew him?
A Yes,
sir, every day, practically.
Q Where
were you residing then?
2729
A I
don’t know the address any more;
Q Where
were you living?
A On
Q In
A Yes.
Q What
was your employment?
A I
was a waitress then.
Q How
long was it from the time you first met Edward John Kerling until you left
A January,
February, March—about the end of April.
Q About
four months?
A Just
about.
Q Did
you see a great deal of him?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you grow fond of him?
A Yes,
sir, very much.
Q Did
you know he was married?
A I
didn’t know right away but soon afterward.
Q Did
he know that you knew?
A Well,
he told me after a while that he was married.
Q Did
you find out before he told you?
A Yes,
sir, I knew it before.
Q Did
that make any difference?
A No.
Q Did
you leave
A I
left
Q Where
did you go?
A I
went home to
Q Just
tell us what your family consists of?
2730
A I
have my mother, a brother Joespeh, one brother Carl, and a sister Johanna.
Q Is
your father living?
A My
father is dead.
Q Where
were your father and mother born?
A In
Q Where
were you born?
A In
Q In
the
A In
the
Q Were
all the children born in the
A My
youngest brother was born in
Q Your
youngest brother?
A Yes.
Q I
think you have a brother in the
A I
believe he is there now; he was leaving shortly after I left home three weeks
ago.
Q He
had been drafted?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Did
you have any employment after you returned from
A Yes,
I worked at the World Fair.
Q During
the time you were working there, Edward John Kerling returned from
A That
is correct.
Q Did
he see you again?
A Yes.
Q Did
he see you frequently?
2731
A Yes.
Q Did
his wife know about it?
A I
believe she knew then, at that time.
Q Did
you ever talk with her about it?
A Not
then.
Q But
later?
A Yes.
Q When?
A When
he had left and gone to
Q When
did he leave?
A The
22nd of July.
Q Did
you know at the time he left where he was going?
A Yes.
Q How
did you find out?
A Well,
through friends, and he told me on the telephone.
Q How
long did you work at the World Fair?
Until the close of it?
A Yes,
I worked there two seasons.
Q What
employment did you have then?
A Then
I was a governess.
Q From
when until when?
A From
the 1st of November till
Q From
A Yes,
1940 to 1941.
Q After
that what was your employment?
A I
was home. We have a business. I helped home.
Q During
the time you were a governess up to November, 1941, who employed you?
2732
A Mr.
Andrew Jergens—Jergens lotion.
Q What
were your duties as governess? Taking
care of children?
A That
is right.
Q How
many?
A Two.
Q Where?
A We
traveled over the country. We were in
Q Were
you generally traveling rather than residing in one place during that time?
A We
would stay—we stayed two months in
Q During
that time I believe you stated that Kerling was over in
A Yes.
Q Were
you hearing from him?
A Yes,
I did.
Q Did
you hear from him while you were at home, before you became a governess for Mr.
Jergens?
A I
couldn’t say; I don’t think I did—Yes, I did receive letters.
Q But
mostly after you were in the employ of Mr. Jergens?
A That
is right.
Q Did
you hear from him after you left the employ of Mr. Jergens?
A Yes,
I did.
2733
Q Did
you keep those letters?
A Yes,
I have those letters.
Q Where
are they now?
A I
believe they are in custody of the F.B.I. in
Q In
custody of the F.B.I.
A Yes.
Q Did
you or did you not ever discuss with Mrs. Kerling a trip by either of you to
A Well,
Mrs. Kerling wanted me to go to
Q Why?
A She
wanted me to marry Eddie.
Q She
suggested that to you?
A Yes.
Q She
suggested that she divorce him and you go?
A Yes.
Q Do
you know what Kerling said about that?
A No.
Q Do
you know of any effort that Edward John Kerling ever made to have his wife,
Marie, come to
A Yes,
he wanted her to come to
Q He
wrote in the letter he wrote you?
A Yes;
he could take care of her very well now.
Q You
discussed that with her?
A Yes,
we have.
Q What
was the discussion?
A Well,
Marie insisted that I should go.
Q Did
she say anything about whether she intended to go
2734
or
wanted to go?
A I
believe she wanted to go at some future date.
Q Do
you know whether or not transportation had been placed at her disposal?
A Yes,
she was supposed to leave a couple of weeks ago.
Q In
what way had transportation been placed at her disposal? Do you know?
A She
got a notice from the Swiss Consulate that she should come and go to
Q What
did she say about that?
A She
didn’t want to go, and she wanted me to go.
Q Did
you form a definite conclusion as to why she wanted you to go instead of
herself?
A She
wanted me to marry Eddie.
2735
Q Did
you form a definite conclusion as to why she wanted you to do that?
(The witness did not
answer.)
Q What
I am trying to find out is, had she ceased to love her husband or not?
A I
think so.
Q What
did she say to you to make you think so, if anything?
A Well,
she said I should go, all the time.
Q She
did not say why?
A Well—
Q Now,
to refresh you memory, did she say anything about considering him more as a
brother than as a husband?
A Yes.
Colonel Dowell. No further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Were
you staying with Eddie just before he left for
A No;
I was at home then.
Q When
was the last time you stayed with him before he went to
A Well,
I would see him frequently before he left.
Q Were
you intimate before he left for
A Do
I have to answer that?
Q I
think you ought to answer that.
A Well,
we were very good friends.
Q Before
he left?
A Yes.
2736
Q When
was the first day you knew that he was back here?
A If
I am not mistaken, it was June 22.
Q Who
told you?
A Well,
nobody told me. Helmut Leiner asked me
to come to
Q Did
you go?
A Yes,
I went with Helmut Leiner to
Q He
was there then?
A And
Eddie was there.
Q That
is the first time you knew he was back.
A Yes.
Q Did
he tell you how he had come back?
A If
I recollect right, he told me that night how he had come back.
Q That
night?
A Yes.
Q He
said he had come back by submarine?
A Yes.
Q Did
you say “Yes”?
A Yes.
Q Did
he tell you what he had come back to do?
A No.
Q Did
you ask him?
A No.
Q You
did not ask him?
A No.
Q You
did not ask him?
2737
A No.
Q Did
he tell you who had come back with him?
A He
mentioned Herman Neubauer.
Q Did
he mention anyone else?
A No.
Q And
then he gave some money to you, didn’t he?
He gave you some money?
A Well—
Q Did
he give you some money then?
A I
would like to decline to answer that, because it would incriminate me.
Q Well,
you have already stated to the F.B.I. that he gave you some money.
A Yes,
I have.
Q Was
that true?
A Yes.
Q How
much money did he give you?
A It
was an odd twenty-dollar bill.
Q And
he asked you to change it for him?
A Yes.
Q And
Leiner gave you a fifty-dollar bill, did he?
A That’s
right.
Q Did
he tell you he had got that from Eddie?
A No,
he did not say he got it from Eddie.
Q Did
you know he got it from Eddie?
A I
kind of gathered it.
Q You
kind of gathered he got it from Eddie?
Did he ask you to change that, too?
A Yes.
2738
Q Did
he give you another fifty-dollar bill to change?
A Yes.
Q You
knew that they came from Eddie, didn’t you?
A Yes,
I kind of gathered it.
Q What
did you do with them? Did you change
them?
A Yes,
I changed them.
Q What
did you do with the change? Did you give
it back to Eddie?
A No. I didn’t have a chance to give it back to
him, because I did not see him again.
Q Did
you give any to Leiner?
A No. I still have it.
Q How
long did you talk to Eddie when you saw him that night? Several hours?
A I
believe about an hour in the afternoon.
Q You
spent the evening together, didn’t you?
A Yes. Mr. Leiner, Eddie, and I spent the evening
together.
Q Were
you alone with Eddie at all?
A Only
in the afternoon, in the park.
Q How
long was that for?
A I
should say about an hour.
Q Had
he asked you to go to
A Yes.
Q What
did you tell him? Did you say you were
going to
A I
think I would.
Q Did
you tell him that?
A Yes.
2739
Q Did
he tell you why you were going to
A I
believe—I don’t know. We didn’t talk
long.
Q He
did not say how you were going down to
A No.
Q He
did not mention that?
A I
don’t remember.
Q You
do not remember that. Did he say he was
going to
A Yes,
Q Did
he ask you to go to
A Yes.
Q And
Chicago also?
A Yes.
Q Did
you tell him you would go to
A Yes.
Q Did
I understand you to say that he wrote you from
A Yes.
Q How
many times did he write that?
A Yes.
Q How
many times did he write that?
A I
don’t know; several times. I’ve got the
letters.
Q Have
you got the letters?
A Yes.
Q Where
are they?
A The
F.B.I. has them now.
Q By
the way, did Eddie tell you how he landed from the submarine? Did he say what kind of boat they used?
2740
A I
believe he mentioned a rubber boat.
Q Did
he say he was an agent of
A No.
Q He
did not say that?
A No.
Q Did
he tell you whom he was working for?
A No.
Q Did
you have any opinion as to what Eddie was doing?
A No.
Q You
did not now whether he was an agent or not?
A No.
Q Do
you think he was?
A I
didn’t know.
The Attorney General. That is all.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions
by Colonel Dowell:
Q Miss
Engemann, have you been successful in your occupation as a governess?
A Yes.
Q To
what do you attribute your success, principally? Have you studied any subject that you
consider has helped you in that way?
A Well,
I had a little child training in school.
Q A
little what?
A Child
training in school.
Q Child
training? You had that subject, child
training?
A Yes.
Q You
stated you did not ask Kerling what his purpose was in coming back from
2741
ask
him what he was going to do on his trip.
Did you have any particular reasons why you declined or refrained from
asking him those questions?
A Because
I knew—
Q Because
you knew him?
A Yes,
I knew him, and I did not want to ask questions. When the right time came—
Q Go
on and tell the Commission, frankly, why.
A Well,
I knew Eddie so well.
Q What
did you know about him so well that caused you to refrain from asking
questions? Go on and tell them,
frankly. They want to know.
A Because
I knew Eddie so well and asking him questions just wouldn’t do.
Q Pardon
me?
A Asking
questions wouldn’t just do.
Q How
would you find out?
A Eventually.
Q Did
you want to find out.
A Yes.
Q What
do you mean by “eventually”? You mean he
would tell you of his own accord eventually; is that it?
A Yes,
I think so.
Q What
would happen if you asked him? Did you
ask him?
A I
don’t think I asked him that time.
Q Well,
now, it has been mentioned that Kerling asked you to go on a trip with him to
2742
If
so, describe the trip.
A Well,
he asked me to go to
Q What
was the situation with reference to your business? I think you stated you have a business in
A That’s
right.
Q What
is it?
A Groceries.
Q Groceries?
A Yes.
Q Who
takes care of the store?
A My
family.
Q Do
you help considerably with it?
A Yes.
Q Who
is the principal manager of that store?
A My
brother Joseph, who is going in the Army.
Q And
he is going away or has gone?
A Yes. I really don’t know. I have not heard.
Q What
did you think about the responsibility that left upon you in that
connection? Did you feel any
responsibility because of that?
A Yes,
I did.
Q Did
you consider that in connection with Kerling’s request that you come with
Kerling on this trip to
A Yes.
Q Had
you ever worked the problem out or come to a
2743
final
decision?
A Well,
I believe I would have gone.
Q You
believe you would have done it? My
question is, had you done so at the time?
A Yes.
Q You
had decided to go with him?
A Yes.
Colonel Dowell. No further questions.
EXAMINATION BY THE COMMISSION
Questions by the President:
Q What
did Kerling tell you when he asked you to go with hi on his trip to
A He
just said he had to go there.
Q For
what reason?
A He
didn’t say.
Q He
said it was a pleasure trip, did he?
A No,
no. He said he had to go to
Q How?
A Well,
accompany him.
Q By
train?
A Well,
we really did not discuss which way.
Q Did
he tell you who else was gong with you?
A No.
Q Nobody?
A No,
I don’t think so.
Q He
told you he was going alone, did he?
A Yes
2744
- Q Whom
was he going to meet in
A I
don’t know.
Q Did
he tell you of any names of anybody he was going to meet?
A No.
Q Did
he ever mention Herbert Haupt to you?
A No.
Q Never?
A Never.
Q Did
he say he was alone in this country; that he had arrived alone from
A No. I knew that Hermann Neubauer was here. That’s all I knew.
Q Why
did you know Hermann Neubauer was here?
A Well,
he said Irma, Mr. Neubauer’s wife, would be kind of upset if she knew Hermann
was here—something like that.
Q Was
Hermann Neubauer going to accompany you on this trip?
A I
don’t know.
The President. Are there any questions by the members of the
Commission? There seem to be none. The witness is excused.
Colonel Dowell. If it please the Commission, the defense
rests.
Colonel Ristine. The defendant Dasch rests his case.
The Attorney General. With the Commission’s permission, we will
send these two witnesses back to
2445
Colonel Sherrill.
This is rebuttal evidence, may it
please the Commission.
Lieutenant Page. Colonel Sherrill. This witness has not been sworn.
Colonel Munson. Colonel Sherrill, the Military Commission
before which you are appearing requires of all witnesses who appear in the
courtroom that they take an oath of secrecy that they will not divulge the
proceedings of the courtroom outside the courtroom. In taking that oath they instruct me also to
inform such witnesses the that they are subject to the penalty of contempt
proceedings or other proceedings of a criminal nature; and, of course, a person
subject to military law and provisions of the Articles of War, for violating an
official status.
In taking the oath, therefore, you
understand that to be the fact?
Colonel Sherrill. I do.
Colonel Munson. Do you solemnly swear that you will not
divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to anyone outside the courtroom
until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by
proper authority, so help you God?
Colonel Sherrill. I do.
Colonel Munson. Do you swear that the evidence you shall give
in the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Colonel Sherrill. I do.
COLONEL STEPHEN H. SHERRILL
was
called as a witness for the prosecution in rebuttal and testified as follows:
2746
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions by The Judge
Advocate General:
Q What
is your full name, rank, organization, and station?
A Colonel
Stephen H. Sherrill, General Staff,
Q What
is you official position?
A I
am on duty in the Operations Division, War Department, General Staff, in charge
of the North America Theatre Group.
Q And
particularly in charge of the Eastern Defense Command?
A That
is one of the subdivisions of my theatre.
Q I
will show you defendant’s Exhibit L and invite your attention to that portion
of it which contains a certain letter, “Subject: Defense of Continental United
States,” the letter being dated
A I
am, yes, sir.
Q The
second paragraph of that letter reads as follows:
“The
name of the Eastern Theater of operations is changed to Eastern Defense
Command. The Eastern Defense Command
will not be a Theatre of Operations.”
Will you explain to the Commission
just what the reason for that order is and the effect of it?
A Field
Service Regulations defines a theater of operations as an area of the theater
of war necessary for military operations and the administration and supply
incident
2747
to
military operations.
Now—
Questions by Colonel Royall.
Q Will
you state the paragraph and page?
A Paragraph
2, page 1, Field Service Regulations.
That is the definition of the theater
of operations.
The order of March 18th,
changing the Eastern Theater of Operations to Defense Command, was issued
because—
Q It
is the reverse of that, I believe, isn’t it?
A I
beg your pardon?
Q It
is the reverse of that, isn’t it?
A I
think not.
Q You
said changing the Theater of Operations to Defense Command?
A That
is what I said.
The Judge Advocate General. That is correct.
The Attorney General. I think it will be easier to let him continue
on with his testimony and then you can cross-examine him.
Questions by the Judge
Advocate General:
Q You
may go ahead.
A The
term “Theater of Operations” as pertaining to the eastern part of the United
States was changed to that of the Eastern Defense Command on March 18th,
because experience had indicated that the supply establishments, training
centers, ports, and so on, should operate under the War Department rather than
under the Commanding General of the Eastern United States. That was the purpose for making the change.
Q So
far as the tactical situation is concerned, is
2748
there
any change?
A Not
at all.
Q In
a tactical sense is that still a theater of operations?
A Yes,
I think so. The Theater of Operations,
as I say, is a term that includes more than tactical operation; and the purpose
for changing the name was eliminate only those parts which had to do with
supply establishments and administration.
Q Is
that the situation with the other defense commands?
A That
is the same.
Q Is
that the situation in
A That
is correct. That is a defense command
also.
Q That
is at the present time a theater of operations?
A Well,
operations are being carried on there.
Q The
Japanese are right there in possession of some of the
A Some
of them.
The Judge Advocate General. That is all.
Questions by the Attorney
General.
Q What
is the definition of “Defense Command”?
Is it defined in your book there?
A I
have a definition here, which defines a defense command as a territorial agency
designed to coordinate or prepare and to initiate the execution of all plans
for the employment of army forces and installations in defense against enemy
action in that portion of the United States lying within command boundaries.
I might say that each of the defense
commanders has troops,
2749
both
ground and air, assigned to him for the purpose of carrying out this mission of
operations against the enemy.
Q I
take it the Eastern Defense Command comes under that definition of Defense
Command, does it not?
A Yes,
sir, it does.
Q Was
A Part
of the Eastern Defense Command. We use
that terminology, sir.
Q From
a tactical point of view?
A Tactically,
yes, within that area.
Q Was
it tactically a part of the Theater of Operations?
A I
must repeat again, the term “Theater of Operations” is merely a definition
which includes supply and administration installations. We dropped that and adopted the other
term. However, tactical operations in
the Eastern Defense Command were just as effective at
Q And
just as effective after this letter was issued as before it was issued?
A Yes.
Q How
about
A
Q And
from a tactical point of view, there was no difference in
A None
whatsoever, no, sir.
Q I
am referring, of course, to the letter of March 18.
A I
understand. Yes, sir.
2750
The Attorney General. Cross-examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Dowell:
Q Colonel,
you have read the definition of a theater of operations from the Field Service
Manual?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Was
that term properly applicable to what is now called the Eastern Defense
Command?
A So
much of it except for that part which applies to administration and supply,
which has been eliminated, and that is the reason for changing the title.
Q It
is true that the administration and supply really pertain to the Zone of the
Interior, is it not, back of the theater of operations, and that the Zone of
the Interior has the job of putting the supplies up to the theater of
operations and on the front?
A That
is right.
Q Now,
the Theater of Operations is nearer the fighting than is the Interior?
A Yes.
Q The
determination was made that the supply situation in the Eastern Defense Command
made that more properly part of the Zone of the Interior than the Theater of
Operations, because of the supply functions involved; is that true?fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffdddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
A That
is right—training activities and things of that kind.
Q Of
course, if there is any fighting which takes place in the Zone of the Interior,
that becomes a military operation. We
understand that. That is true, but would
that
2751
make
it a theater of operations?
A Well,
I think so. As soon as fighting took
place there, yes; immediately that becomes factual.
Q Wherever
fighting was going on?
A Yes.
Colonel Dowell. I have no further questions.
The Attorney General. That is all.
The President. There seem to be no questions by the
Commission. The witness may be excused.
The Attorney General. It is understood that this Defendant’s
Exhibit L is spread on the record?
Colonel Royall. The map, too?
The Attorney General. The written material. The map is part of the exhibits.
(DEFENDANT’S EXHIBIT L)
“CONFIDENTIAL
WAR DEPARTMENT
THE ADJUTANT GENERAL’S OFFICE
Refer to AG 381 (
SUBJECT: Defense of Continental
TO: Colonel Cassius M. Dowell,
Senior Defense Counsel.
“1.
Paragraph 2 of War Department letter,
2752
“2. Inclosed is a map of the Army Map
Service, U.S. Army,
“By
order of the Secretary of War:
“(Signed)
J.A. Ulio
Major
General,
The
Adjutant General.
1 Incl.
Map of Army Map
- - -
“CONFIDENTIAL
The
Adjutant General’s Office
AG 381 (
Subject: Defense of Continental
To: Commanding Generals, Eastern Theater of
Operations,
Western
Defense Command,
Central
Defense Command,
Southern
Defense Command,
Army Air
Forces,
Army
Ground Forces,
Services
of Supply.
“1.
The following instructions become effective
“2.
The name of the Eastern Theater of Operations is changed to Eastern Defense
Command. The Eastern Defense Command
will not be a Theater of Operations.
“3. The Eastern, Central, Southern and
Western Defense Commands are subordinate directly to the War
2753
Department. War Plans Division, WDGS, is the agency
through which the Chief of Staff directs the Defense Commands.
“4. The First and Fourth Armies are
assigned to the Eastern and Western Defense Commands respectively. The Second and Third Armies are assigned to
the Army Ground Forces. The Commanding
Generals Second and Third Armies perform a dual function as Commanders of the
Central and Southern Defense Commands respectively.
“5. Eastern Defense Command.
“a. The following pass to control of
the commanding General, services of supply:
“(1) Corps Areas or parts of Corps
Areas in the area of the Eastern Defense Command, including units of the field
forces now engaged in protection of utilities, installations and facilities against
sabotage or internal threat.
“(2) Present theater of operations supply
establishments in the Eastern Defense Command Area.
“b. The I and VI Army Corps. Including assigned or attached troops, pass
to the control of the Commanding General, Army Ground Forces, at their present
station. The Commanding General, Eastern
Defense Command, will submit to the Chief of Staff by
“c. Units of the Newfoundland Base
Command will not be transferred to other areas without authority of
2754
the War Department.
“6. Western Defense Command.
“a. Temporarily and
until further orders as indicated below, the Western Defense Command retains
its present status, including control of the Ninth Corps Area. The Commanding General Western Defense
Command, will notify the War Department when the evacuation of the bulk of the
Japanese in
“b.
As arranged by the Commanding Generals, Army Ground Forces and Western Defense
Command, but not later than
2755
assignment to the Western Defense
Command.
“c.
Units transferred from the Western Defense Command to the Army Ground Forces
and stationed within the Ninth Corps Area will be supplied by the Ninth Corps
Area.
“d.
Movement of units from continental
“7.
General instructions to the Eastern and Western Defense Commands.
“a.
The commanders of the Eastern and Western Defense Commands will each organize
an anti-aircraft command in accordance with principles of Training Circular No.
71, War Department,
“b.
Defense Command troops will be afforded every practicable opportunity to
continue training.
“c.
In order to avoid delay in air reinforcements of overseas garrisons, only
temporary changes may be made in operating bases of heavy and medium
bombardment units. Tactical movements
may be ordered as required for units assigned to the defense commands. Permanent changes of station of units will
not be made except by authority of the War Department.
“d.
The integrity of the set-up of the inter-
2756
ceptor commands, including signal
communications, will be preserved.
“e.
Pending the assignment of suitable units to the Army Air Forces, ground units
of the Defense Command will provide necessary guard of airdromes. Air Corps troops will be used for this
purpose only in emergencies. Traffic
control and normal interior guard functions will continue to be performed by
Air Corps troops.
“8.
Central and Southern Defense Commands.
“a.
The Commanding General, Third Army, in his capacity as Commander of the
Southern Defense Command and after coordination with the Commanding General,
Army Ground Forces, will use such forces of the Third Army as may be necessary
to defend against external attack the coastal and land frontiers of the
Southern Defense Command and such other points within the command as may be
specifically designated by the War Department.
“b.
The Commanding General, Second Army, in his capacity as Commander of the
Central Defense Command is charged with such security of the Sault Saint Marie
Looks and Canal as is provided by elements of the Army Ground Forces. The Sault Saint Marie Military District is
placed under his command.
“9.
Army Ground Forces.
“a.
Units transferred from the Eastern and Western Defense Commands will be
reassigned within
2757
the Army Ground Forces.
“b.
All troops within the Defense Command area, will be available to the Defense
Commander in emergencies, reporting each use to the Commanding General, Ground
Forces.
“c.
Except as indicated below, units of the Second and Third Armies now on duty
protecting utilities, installations and facilities against sabotage or internal
threat pass to the control of the Commanding General, Services of Supply, until
relieved by military police units of the Services of Supply. United which perform antisabotage missions
incidental to their defense missions will remain under Army control.
“10. Services of Supply.
Except
where specifically charged to other commanders, the Commanding General,
Services of Supply is charged with protection of utilities, installations and
facilities in the
“(a)
Release to the Commanding General, Army Ground Forces, units of the Army Ground
Forces engaged in protection of utilities, installations and facilities against
sabotage or internal threat as rapidly as military police units become
available to replace them.
“(b)
Provide supplies for, and cooperate with the Defense Commander in carrying out
his mission.
“(c)
At the request of the Commanding Generals, Eastern and Western Defense
Commands, procure and place
2758
at their disposal such land, positions
and other facilities as the mission of the Defense Commands may require.
“11.
Army Air Forces. “No Army Air
Forces are at this time assigned defense missions in the Central and Southern
Defense Command areas.
“By
direction of the Commander-in-Chief:
G.C.
Marshall,
Chief
of Staff.
OFFICIAL:
DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER,
Brigadier General,
Assistant
Chief of Staff.
COPIES FURNISHED:
The Chief of Naval Operations;
The Commander-in-Chief,
The Inspector General;
The Divisions of the War Department
General
Staff.”
- - - - -
THOMAS
J. DONEGAN
was recalled as a witness
for the prosecution in rebuttal and, having been previously duly sworn,
testified as follows:
Colonel Munson. Mr.
Donegan, having been sworn previously, you are reminded that you are under
oath.
The Witness. Yes,
sir. Thomas J. Donegan, Assistant Agent
in Charge, Assigned to the
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q The defendant Thiel testified as follows:
“Yes, Mr. Donegan mistreated me. He took me to his
2759
office, and I don’t know exactly what
he asked me, and I didn’t answer, and he pulled my hair and slapped me.”
What did occur on that occasion that
Thiel refers to?
A I did not pull Thiel’s hair or I did not
slap him. I did talk rough to him—well,
I would characterize it as being rough.
In other words, while I was talking to Theil I told him that I had
information definitely indicating that he had landed in
He denied he landed in
Subsequently, after I talked to him for awhile, he admitted
he was in the vicinity of
I asked him how he arrived at
I did use some rather strong language.
Q Perhaps you
could give us an example of it?
A I don’t know
whether I should put it in the record. I
told him that I considered him a dirty rat.
He had earned his living in this country and he had sneaked into the
country
again for the purpose of
harming people in this country, possibly killing them. I told him that I knew where there were
explosives buried in
Q No one else
was there at that time?
A No. He was in my office alone.
Q And then the
doctor came in?
2760
A I have no
knowledge of that. The doctor came in
subsequently.
Q You were not
there at that time?
A No, I was
not.
Q Kerling, as I
remember, testified that you were to the left of him, in a sitting position,
and that Drayton was in front of him, and that you got mad and pulled his hair,
drew him down, and tipped him over on his lap, and you took your hand and
slapped him.
Do you remember the occasion when you and Drayton were
together?
A I remember Drayton and Kerling and myself were
in my office.
Q What did
occur?
A I was talking
— I had previously talked to Kerling for a considerable period of time in my
office. I talked to him alone, and
during my conversations with him I told him that I has knowledge that he landed
from a submarine in the vicinity of
I told him that I wanted to know where the explosives were
buried. I had a map of
He denied having any knowledge of any explosives being
buried. He denied that he came from a
submarine. He stated that he came from
Also with reference to Kerling, I perhaps used the same
type of language that I used with Thiel.
I told him that I was not going to sit there like a fool and listen to
that
2761
kind of story from him.
Q Did the doctor
come in while you were there?
A No, sir.
Q Did you hear
Kerling make any complaints about your slapping him?
A I think I
testified before with reference to the fact that Kerling had said I brushed him
by the face, and I asked him whether that was true, and he said no, it was no
true subsequently. I think I testified
to that.
Q Yes,
you testified to that.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Mr.
Donegan, did you go out with Kerling in the meantime alone and talk with him?
A Since
he made that allegation?
Q Yes.
A No,
I did not.
Q Are
you certain about that?
A Yes,
I am certain about that.
Colonel Royall: That is all.
The President. There seem to be no questions from the
Commission.
The Attorney General. The Prosecution closes its rebuttal.
Is there any surrebuttal?
Colonel Royall. No.
The Attorney General. May it be noted on record, then, that the
case, so far as the evidence goes, is now closed?
2762
Colonel Royall. It may.
Colonel Ristine. That is correct.
The President. I
will adjourn the open session and will communicate the time later, but in
connection with that I would be very glad to have the representatives of both
sides talk to us about that.
(There
was an informal discussion, after which the following occurred:)
The President. We will adjourn until
(Thereupon,
at 4:37 o’clock p.m., an adjournment was taken until Thursday, July 30, 1942,
at 10 o’clock a.m.)
2762A
City of
) SS
I, Lloyd L. Harkins, a
member of the firm of shorthand reporters designated as the official reporters
for the Military Commission appointed by the President on July 2, 1942, do
hereby certify that the foregoing typewritten pages numbered from 1 to 2762
include a full, true and complete transcript of the proceedings as taken before
said Military Commission on July 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21,
22, 24, 25, and 27, 1942.
(sgd.)
Lloyd L. Harkins
Subscribed
and sworn to before me this 29th day of July, 1942.
(sgd.)
Ora A. Stack__
(handwritten) Notary
Public